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Post Reply What are people's biggest objection(s) to Jesus/Christianity/church?
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Posted 2/2/16 , edited 2/2/16

dotsforlife wrote:All good. I can read between the lines and pick up what I need lol. That was just the first time I'd seen someone say that so I figured I'd ask.


You know, there really isn't anything between printed lines, you're just imagining there is? Good thing smart folk don't believe in imaginary things though, like other people.

(Oh, and I'm a person of faith, so that means I'm always charging you money! That will be $20 for that piece of wisdom, thank you, I'll take check, PayPal or phone donation, so I can pay for my new water park! )
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Posted 2/2/16

Ejanss wrote:


dotsforlife wrote:All good. I can read between the lines and pick up what I need lol. That was just the first time I'd seen someone say that so I figured I'd ask.


You know, there really isn't anything between printed lines, you're just imagining there is? Good thing you don't believe in imaginary things though, like other people.

(Oh, and I'm a person of faith, so that means I'm always charging you money! That will be $20 for that piece of wisdom, thank you, I'll take check, PayPal or phone donation, so I can pay for my new water park! )


Easy, now.
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Posted 2/2/16

cataclisto wrote:

My biggest objection isn't to the religion, (im Methodist btw, its the catholic branch that does a large number of humanitarian missionary work). My objection is to the church itself. most branches of the church have become industrialized and are becoming more boring and not as personal as they used to be (smaller churches close, people forced to go to larger ones), people are of the mindset that you must go to church and donate to it, which isnt that great anymore, id rather do something meaningful during church then listen to something that puts half the church to sleep...


I agree with you. I am a Lector in a Roman Catholic Church and I am also not very fond of how the church becomes so industrialized.

I am also not very fond of these certain Christian people that are "Christianity is the Key! Abide by it!" Sure, it could be a way of saying "I'm proud of having a faith" but these people doesn't really need to rub it in to people.

I guess these public preachers at streets and the church becoming so industrialized makes me want to jump off a cliff....
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Posted 2/2/16
"Gods and Devils are the same thing. No matter how you try to dress it up, the fact is humans are their toys.

^ this quote is one good reason.
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Posted 2/2/16 , edited 2/2/16
Disclaimer: Not saying every religious person is like this

My favorite thing about Christians is how they use their religion to justify outlawing things that don't agree with their religion. Abortion and gay marriage. I like how they cherry-pick the Bible so they can justify their points. You can't choose what points of the Bible you want to take and which you don't. It's all or none. If you want to follow it all, then let's start with this

Don't eat fat, don't eat pork, don't eat shellfish, don't have more than one type of seed in a field, don't cut your hair, death penalty for cursing at your parents, don't wear gold, don't wear more than one type of fabric at a time. Why not then just follow all these rules?

They also use their Bible from their religion to try and affect the rest of the country. Don't like homosexuality? Don't participate in it. Let the rest of us do what we want. Don't like abortion? Neither do the rest of us, but sometimes it's the best option. It's not your body, so screw off. Neither of those things affect you. Don't force your religion on everyone else-LIKE THE BIBLE TELLS YOU NOT TO DO.

I don't have anything against people who are religious. I was at one time, and they tried to brainwash me into hating homosexuals, but I wised up once I started thinking for myself. If you don't try to recruit me to your craziness and keep your religion out of our laws, then I have no problem with you at all. After all, I don't want my beliefs to affect yours and vice versa.

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Posted 2/2/16 , edited 2/2/16

descloud wrote:
-A donkey in the desert? Donkeys cannot survive in a desert. This literally makes no sense.


Yeah, I mean like, who'd ever see a donkey in Mexico? That's just INSANITY!


Glorianos wrote:I like how they cherry-pick the Bible so they can justify their points. You can't choose what points of the Bible you want to take and which you don't. It's all or none.


Yeah, cherry-picking things out of the Bible 100% out of context to wishfully try and prove personal-grudge points is BAD. Let's remember that point.

(Although it isn't really "All or none", which is the same dogma other people accuse other people of, it's learning how to put things in context. And assuming other people are smart enough to as well.
We already dug into "No, seriously, you don't actually freakin' READ the Old Testament, do you?--Well, the New Testament stuck us with it, you just have to take it as a product of its Hebrew-propaganda time" details on the last thread.


Glorianos wrote:. Don't force your religion on everyone else-LIKE THE BIBLE TELLS YOU NOT TO DO.


Specifically, the guy who once said you didn't have to tell people you were Christians with a capital C, they would know it by your good and generous work, and the love and respect you showed to other people.
Betcha can't guess Who said that! Aw, c'mon, not even a little guess?


PrimoKazeTsubasa wrote:
I agree with you. I am a Lector in a Roman Catholic Church and I am also not very fond of how the church becomes so industrialized.


The Church--we should now specifically say the Roman Catholic church, now that there are two of them--HAD to become industrialized during the medieval era to use Rome's secrets of creating civilized order out of chaos, but violated just about every commandment in industrializing itself to appeal to other pagan religions:
To appeal to goddess-centered religions, they put Mary at the front, pretty much dispatching #1, "No other gods before me", and to keep a visual presence, work was put into statues of Mary and the saints, edging dangerously on #2, "No graven images", and saints were brought in to appeal to the polytheists.
With work-diligent monasteries pretty much owning the monopoly on wine, schools, and books, they were the corporate power of their day, but it was when they realized that kings had to go to Mass too, that they started becoming the Power Behind the Throne, literally.

If you're "protesting" the Vatican's attempt to turn religion into an Industrialized Money Making Machine, well, you're in luck--One theologian in Germany took on the Catholics' "industry", as well as its hierarchy that took religion out of the common people's hands, rationalized theological excuses to keep their high overhead of paid professionals and "voluntary" taxation, and wielded threats of hellfire if anyone brought up objections to the system.
Might want to look up his article, he posted it, about oh, five hundred years ago. On a door.
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There is no archaeological physical or any records by the romans that Jesus actually existed find me something physical that can be tested in a lab then I will be convinced the bible is real. Not only that but I read all the ancient texts including the bible the qarian or how ever you spell it and I am working on The Mahabharata. There is not one thing in all 3 books that could not be explained by technology and I don't even watch ancient aliens either. The bible is one of the best pieces of evidence that there was more going on with technology in the distant past. Like when god came down from the sky in smoke loud noises and fire to me the moment I read that was technology. Again I ask this question why does god need technology. It just goes on and on and on same for the other 2. Also people need to remember that magic and the divine do not exists in our reality its just how things work it goes against the basic operating law of our universe. We only have technology not one single person has been able to use magic in the past 50,000 years and there has not been one piece of solid evidence god is real same for Jesus. This is why we need to dump all religion and focus our effort on technology development and resource development
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Posted 2/2/16
I consider myself Christian, but I don't really involve myself in the religious organization, nor do I consider myself any kind of authority on the subject. It's enough for me to just respect my cultural heritage.
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Posted 2/2/16
was cheesus vegan?
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Posted 2/2/16

IngramIV wrote:

was cheesus vegan?


He is whatever you want him to be.
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Posted 2/2/16
Likely won't add anything new or relevant that hasn't already been posted. I didn't read every post verbatim...

Catholic Church seems to focus more on capitalization than the needs of its flock. I vanished from the fold at age 15 questioning its authority and authenticity about governing lifestyles beyond their doors. Looking back some of the instructive suggestions was/were relevant to pursuing a stable life while the remainder was manipulation.

The Aborigines got it right. I liked their conceptualization of Enlightment versus all things professed Catholic/Christian. It's worked out so far.

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dotsforlife wrote:

I would say no based on what the Bible says about God giving us free will. Plus it is written that we were practically sinless before the fall of man.

Though that could be argued against by saying man was created in Gods image, so what does that say about us in the first place?

Take your pick.


I personally don't see a contradiction. I believe 1) that we were and still are created in the image of God and that we were sinless before we chose to disobey God of our own free will; 2) that our desire for relationship with other people stems from the fact that God created us to be in relationship with Him; 3) that we broke our relationship with God when we chose to leave Him and go our own way; and 4) that Jesus died to pay the penalty of death that we deserved (Romans 6:23, 5:8) in order to make it possible for us to be reconciled to God, but now it is up to each of us to accept that free gift.

By way of analogy, I can do my bit and buy you a birthday gift, but it won't mean anything if you don't accept the gift from me.
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Drewkun88 wrote:

I personally don't see a contradiction. I believe 1) that we were and still are created in the image of God and that we were sinless before we chose to disobey God of our own free will; 2) that our desire for relationship with other people stems from the fact that God created us to be in relationship with Him; 3) that we broke our relationship with God when we chose to leave Him and go our own way; and 4) that Jesus died to pay the penalty of death that we deserved (Romans 6:23, 5:8) in order to make it possible for us to be reconciled to God, but now it is up to each of us to accept that free gift.

By way of analogy, I can do my bit and buy you a birthday gift, but it won't mean anything if you don't accept the gift from me.


I'm agnostic myself, so while I believe a god is likely to exist, being unable to comprehend most of this world, just going and saying 'this god must be the real one,' i,e the Christian god, isn't an easy thing to do.

Anyways.. that post is why people have a hard time following Christianity.

>god created us
>god gave us free will
>god got mad that we didn't instantly follow him
>god thought we deserved to die
>instead, jesus, who is also god via the trinity decided to go and die
>somehow god killing himself amounts to us reconciling with him.

So, while I haven't made my case on who or what I believe to be god, it's very easy to say why people are a little iffy about that whole Christianity thing.. on top of the absurd corruption and greed of the christian church which could be helping people in despair from dying.
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Drewkun88 wrote:I personally don't see a contradiction. I believe 1) that we were and still are created in the image of God and that we were sinless before we chose to disobey God of our own free will; 2) that our desire for relationship with other people stems from the fact that God created us to be in relationship with Him; 3) that we broke our relationship with God when we chose to leave Him and go our own way; and 4) that Jesus died to pay the penalty of death that we deserved (Romans 6:23, 5:8) in order to make it possible for us to be reconciled to God, but now it is up to each of us to accept that free gift.

By way of analogy, I can do my bit and buy you a birthday gift, but it won't mean anything if you don't accept the gift from me.


2 was made particularly quotable by Dickens, when one of his characters was scolded that he "chose not to seek God in his heart by seeking it in Men of good will."
Most atheists appear to be more personally terrified of the latter than the former, as indeed was the character.

To bring the above analogy into a human perspective, I'm under no obligation to buy someone else a birthday gift, as it's free and a nice thing to do if I do--I may be following some "outdated custom" in buying it, not that it bothers me in the least--but if they don't accept it because they think I'm being "intrusive" of their personal space, it's not only their loss and no one else's, but I'm perfectly within my own opinion to consider that they're being a dick. :)
God is generous enough to merely say, "Hey, your loss, but I'll keep it here in case you change your mind, no big", without muttering "(.....Dick. )" under His breath.


Drewkun88 wrote:
3) Wars: For those who were posting, I'm wondering whether the comments about the Crusades critique Christianity in particular or whether they critique religions in general


The chief defense of the anti-religion arguments is to try and play the high-handed "Hypocrisy" card, say "I know you are but what am I?", and accuse people of faith of not practicing what they preach either. That's pretty much all they've got.

The Crusades was certainly a product of Medieval Catholicism's attempt to expand political influence and power, especially in valuable trade routes, so A), for lapsed Catholics, it plays right into the "Conspiracy/Industry" card, and B), for the gainsaying "Hypocrisy" arguers, it played perfectly well into Bush's Iraq war (a rich time for atheists to wrap themselves in the confusing CNN headlines of the day and martyr themselves as The Poor Persecuted Rational Man), and pushing headline buttons that "we're no better than those 'evil' Muslims!"
Again, you can see it's pretty much all they've got.


4) Old Testament laws. I won't go into details, but (at the risk of sounding like I'm cherry-picking) will note that the laws of the Torah/Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) were written at a specific time for a specific people, and had their purpose fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross and rose again. See Acts 10: 9-16 for how Peter, a disciple of Jesus and a Jew (since Jesus and His disciples were all Jews) is freed from the old law.


We already covered the OT-cherrypicking problems on the last thread-topic go-round from the Red Army girl, but it's still worth a mention:
There's reading, and then there's Reading Comprehension, which they tested you on in the SAT's.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-934937/why-do-some-smart-people-fail-to-figure-their-way-out-of-religion?pg=14#52815853


To understand Jesus' background, we're supposed to understand the Hebrew traditions he was raised on--and the belief that God had made them his "chosen people" (which is misinterpreting somewhat), which is why he seemed to get so angry when they broke it--as a better understanding of the changes Christianity was making to it:
Jesus first arrives in the temples saying "I am the One whom the prophets spoke of"...Which prophets? Okay, well, now we have to keep Isaiah in there, for reference.
His message is simple, "Follow God's commandments"...Which commandments? Okay, now we have to keep Exodus in there.
The first chapter of Matthew tries to give Jesus needed Hebrew legitimacy by tracing his family-tree lineage back to David....David who? Okay, Judges and Kings stay in the picture. And so on.
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Also, inb4 anyone calls me out on cherry-picking, some common points have been thrown out so I'll try to respond to them in a short-ish post:

1) The nature of "proof". No, I can't prove to you that God exists and you can't prove to me that He doesn't. We can certainly discuss and argue though and I can offer arguments in support of the Christian God.

2) History. There was an interesting article I read recently (available at credohouse.org/blog/christianity-the-worlds-most-falsifiable-religion). Of note was this paragraph:
"This belief has been a source of contention with many people, even Christians, in the past. But the more I research, the more I find it to be the case that Christianity is the only viable worldview that is historically defensible. The central claims of the Bible demand historic inquiry, as they are based on public events that can be historically verified. In contrast, the central claims of all other religions cannot be historically tested and, therefore, are beyond falsifiability or inquiry. They just have to be believed with blind faith."

This brings several common claims into question: That 'there is no historical evidence for the Jesus of the Bible', that 'all religions are the same and lead to God', and that the Bible is fiction.

Regarding the idea that 'all paths lead to God', I like what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians:
"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied." --- 1 Cor. 15:12-19

If Jesus was who He said He was (i.e. that He was the only way to God) and if He did what He said He would do (die on a cross then rise from the grave), then Christianity is superior to all religions. If Jesus did not rise from the grave and was therefore not God, then Christianity is not worth believing in at all and is inferior to all other religions. The point is that it can't be on the same level, one option out of many. It's all or nothing.

3) Wars: For those who were posting, I'm wondering whether the comments about the Crusades critique Christianity in particular or whether they critique religions in general.

4) Old Testament laws. I won't go into details, but (at the risk of sounding like I'm cherry-picking) will note that the laws of the Torah/Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) were written at a specific time for a specific people, and had their purpose fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross and rose again. See Acts 10: 9-16 for how Peter, a disciple of Jesus and a Jew (since Jesus and His disciples were all Jews) is freed from the old law. I'm a Christian. I eat pork.

5) Fiction: It's undeniable that, fiction or not, we have multiple documents that has been passed down through the centuries about a guy named Jesus. We know from extrabiblical sources that Christians in the early centuries AD were tortured and executed in horrible ways. Still, Christians clung to their beliefs. How many of them would be willing to stick with it for the sake of fiction? Even more than that, how many of the original disciples, after seeing Jesus killed, would have been willing to get this whole Jesus thing started in the first place? What would the original gospel writers have had to gain from writing fiction at the risk of their lives?
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