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Post Reply What if God does not exist?
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Posted 2/4/16

Drewkun88
1. There would be no life after this one.


Although the Christian conception of the afterlife requires the existence of a god, not all do. There are Buddhists who believe in reincarnation and no forms of divinity, for example.


Drewkun88
2. Given the positioning of our solar system in the Milky Way, the positioning of the Earth, the oxygen ratio in the atmosphere, and the fine-tuning of several physical constants that govern the relative strength of different forces, the fact that we exist means we are ridiculously lucky - on the order of winning the lottery several times in a row.


The fine tuning argument is weak. We live on a planet that can sustain human life in a universe that allows for planets like Earth because otherwise we wouldn't exist. The evolution of our species as we currently know it requires an environment we can live in. There is nothing strange or supernatural about finding life where it can live. Out in the universe there might be vastly different kinds of life living on planets very different than ours. The only thing that might point to the need for an intervening intelligence would be if we found ourselves living somewhere we couldn't. Like if one day we all woke up and were at the bottom of the ocean protected by some kind of barrier. But nothing about our current reality suggests the need for divine intervention to happen. What happened to the poor saps that didn't win the lottery several times in a row? They don't exist.


Drewkun88
3. Criminals who die before facing the courts would get away without ever facing justice.


Some Christians think hell isn't real (I admit, this is unusual). But again, reality could work like many Buddhists think where our fate is the outcome of our karma and not divine judgement of any kind. And considering all it takes to go to hell for eternity according to many Christians is to not believe the same things they do, I'm not certain the existence of the Christian God makes the world any more just or fair. Although there are admonishments in the Bible to do avoid doing evil, we don't really know what hell is supposed to be like. Perhaps God treats everyone there the same.


Drewkun88
4. We are left to solve all of the world's problems, including war, poverty, climate change, and slavery, on our own.


There is no existing evidence that any agent other than humans has acted to work out any of the issues you mentioned. Or are you referring to something less direct like divine guidance? Considering how little anyone agrees--even on issues concerning the Bible, which surely God cares about--it is doubtful anyone has received any reliable information from prayer.


Drewkun88
5. We have no reason to be good to one another, except to avoid being put in jail. We are, like any other animal, by-products of evolution and exist only to pass on our genes to the next generation.


That is flat out wrong and reflects a very incomplete understanding of evolution. Cooperation among members of the same species (and even different species) is found throughout the animal kingdom, and humans are no exception. Cooperating has many benefits, and has good reasons for evolving in many species.
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Posted 2/4/16 , edited 2/4/16

EarthLight22 wrote:

Drewkun88
3. Criminals who die before facing the courts would get away without ever facing justice.


Some Christians think hell isn't real (I admit, this is unusual).


Well, depends what you mean by "Unusual": Most middle-of-the-road Protestant sects have already given up on it, and even the Catholics backed off their stance on the Hieronymous Bosch "weenie roast" imagery a while ago, in favor of what it more realistically is--A void, deprived of everything else outside this world (as there isn't much outside this world, we are led to believe, apart from God), and therefore not particularly much fun.
If you reject the acceptance God has for you, you're free to go make your own....Good luck. But only so long as you reject it, or live in self-punishing guilt for thinking you don't deserve it.

As it is now, the only sects that believe in an actual cliche'-approved Double-Toothpicks with pitchforks, lava and dapper-looking Boss are A) Fundamentalists, and B ) Atheists who either grew up as Fundamentalists, or just paranoiacally believe that everyone else in the world is.
And ain't no self-proclaimed "expert" on Hell, damnation, and why God wants to send everyone there who looks at Him cross-eyed (NPI), like an atheist...Yep, the voice of research and authority.
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Posted 2/4/16

TRKitsune wrote:


MJStamp wrote:

It is a moot question because God does exist.


Do you write off all hypothetical questions as moot, or do you just not care for philosophical debate?


I don't really care for philosophical debate, to be honest.
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Posted 2/4/16
Then he/she/it doesn't exist.

Either way he/she/it has never impacted our lives since man first walked.
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Posted 2/4/16

EarthLight22 wrote:


Drewkun88
1. There would be no life after this one.


Although the Christian conception of the afterlife requires the existence of a god, not all do. There are Buddhists who believe in reincarnation and no forms of divinity, for example. [/quote}


I've always wondered about that. Perhaps you can enlighten me a bit (no pun intended). Buddhists believe in reincarnation. Karma is at work and depending on your ratio of good karma to bad karma, you reincarnate in the next life as something better or worse.

To me, karma is a process. A mechanism. I question how this mechanism was put into place. It would make more sense to me if karma was a mechanism devised by a deity. I have a hard time imagining a process like karma just coming into its being of its own, without sentience or will.



Drewkun88
2. Given the positioning of our solar system in the Milky Way, the positioning of the Earth, the oxygen ratio in the atmosphere, and the fine-tuning of several physical constants that govern the relative strength of different forces, the fact that we exist means we are ridiculously lucky - on the order of winning the lottery several times in a row.


The fine tuning argument is weak. We live on a planet that can sustain human life in a universe that allows for planets like Earth because otherwise we wouldn't exist. The evolution of our species as we currently know it requires an environment we can live in. There is nothing strange or supernatural about finding life where it can live. Out in the universe there might be vastly different kinds of life living on planets very different than ours. The only thing that might point to the need for an intervening intelligence would be if we found ourselves living somewhere we couldn't. Like if one day we all woke up and were at the bottom of the ocean protected by some kind of barrier. But nothing about our current reality suggests the need for divine intervention to happen. What happened to the poor saps that didn't win the lottery several times in a row? They don't exist.


How is it weak? I think you rephrased my argument and worked backwards to make it look weaker. This is what I'm hearing:
'We exist because the planet we're on allows us to exist. If our planet didn't allow for us to exist, we wouldn't be here. If a different planet had a different kind of environment, it would be able to sustain a different life-form, just not ours.'

What I'm arguing is that even if you ignore everything else, the universe itself is so fine-tuned that if the physical constants governing the state of the universe were off by just a minuscule fraction, the universe would either expand too quickly for stars (and therefore galaxies) to form or would implode on itself. And so on top of the fine-tuning of the physical constants, you need the fine-tuning of the rate conversion of hydrogen into helium to form stars and galaxies, never mind the position of the solar system in the Milky Way, the location of the Earth relative to the Sun, and the sustaining of life on Earth.

Of course it's easy to come up with convenient explanations by using the power of infinity. 'With infinite planets and infinite universes we're bound to find life somewhere else.' 'Life as we know it might not be able to survive on other planets, but other kinds of life we don't know about will.' 'Lucky is lucky, even when the odds are one in a hundred trillion.'

We've found lots of planets like Earth already. Let me know when one of them shows signs of life.



Drewkun88
3. Criminals who die before facing the courts would get away without ever facing justice.


Some Christians think hell isn't real (I admit, this is unusual). But again, reality could work like many Buddhists think where our fate is the outcome of our karma and not divine judgement of any kind. And considering all it takes to go to hell for eternity according to many Christians is to not believe the same things they do, I'm not certain the existence of the Christian God makes the world any more just or fair. Although there are admonishments in the Bible to do avoid doing evil, we don't really know what hell is supposed to be like. Perhaps God treats everyone there the same.


See above comment. If karma exists, where did it come from? Or did it not have a source and instead just popped into existence?



Drewkun88
4. We are left to solve all of the world's problems, including war, poverty, climate change, and slavery, on our own.


There is no existing evidence that any agent other than humans has acted to work out any of the issues you mentioned. Or are you referring to something less direct like divine guidance? Considering how little anyone agrees--even on issues concerning the Bible, which surely God cares about--it is doubtful anyone has received any reliable information from prayer.


Nope, all I meant was what I said. If there is no god then we really are all alone in the world and are left to fix monumental problems without any outside help. I was just trying to answer the OP's question. That's all.



Drewkun88
5. We have no reason to be good to one another, except to avoid being put in jail. We are, like any other animal, by-products of evolution and exist only to pass on our genes to the next generation.


That is flat out wrong and reflects a very incomplete understanding of evolution. Cooperation among members of the same species (and even different species) is found throughout the animal kingdom, and humans are no exception. Cooperating has many benefits, and has good reasons for evolving in many species.


My understanding of evolution is not incomplete. "Cooperating has many benefits, and has good reasons for evolving in many species.". It's no surprise that humans and other animals learned to be social and (in some cases) developed things like leisure and tools when those who took part in such things tended to survive longer. In other words, it was the social ones who were most successful in mating. Cooperation still ties back to its benefit in passing on our genes.

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Posted 2/4/16

Sagenaruto68 wrote:

What if God does not exist ? What does or will it mean to Human specie ?

found this online forum


if thread like this exist let me know


Probably not possible. The evolutionary path to overmind has probably been achieved already, which means a god now exists. If not and we become the first species to reach overmind, then we will take that position at the end of our evolutionary path. In other words if one didn't exist before, then one will be made. If one will be made in the future then N-dimensional space will become consumed, and the multiverse will fall under it's control, in which case both time and space will be under full observation . Therefore some species has or will achieve absolute power, which in turn means that one already exists. Suck it up! Cosmology and membrane physics is a bitch, and it's looking more and more crazy the more we know. An all powerful superbeing is not out of the question, and may even be necessary in the overall. <shudder> It's a little scary to imagine a being who has full control over quantum, dimensional and temporal dynamics. Try reading up on M-physics and multiverse cosmology, pretty interesting material. Our 12 billion light year area may only be a portion of space time that is still expanding due to what may have been a local dimensional membrane collapse. Our particular universe inside the multiverse may be much much larger than anticipated. Remember this (I do as a scientist), everything we see, examine and process is all by way of our meat suits, which aren't very good at receiving large volumes of information. We must remain vigilant and keep our minds open to all possibilities, even if it disagrees with personal philosophy, religion, feelings, social dynamics, political view and the way we interpret them. Keep an open mind, anything else is fundamentalism, and that includes religion, science, atheism, political views etc. Fundamentalism is the kiss of death for science, religion, atheism and anything else that's worth pursuing. Fundamentalism is for the week minded.
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Posted 2/4/16

Drewkun88 wrote:


EarthLight22 wrote:


Drewkun88
2. Given the positioning of our solar system in the Milky Way, the positioning of the Earth, the oxygen ratio in the atmosphere, and the fine-tuning of several physical constants that govern the relative strength of different forces, the fact that we exist means we are ridiculously lucky - on the order of winning the lottery several times in a row.


The fine tuning argument is weak. We live on a planet that can sustain human life in a universe that allows for planets like Earth because otherwise we wouldn't exist. The evolution of our species as we currently know it requires an environment we can live in. There is nothing strange or supernatural about finding life where it can live. Out in the universe there might be vastly different kinds of life living on planets very different than ours. The only thing that might point to the need for an intervening intelligence would be if we found ourselves living somewhere we couldn't. Like if one day we all woke up and were at the bottom of the ocean protected by some kind of barrier. But nothing about our current reality suggests the need for divine intervention to happen. What happened to the poor saps that didn't win the lottery several times in a row? They don't exist.


How is it weak? I think you rephrased my argument and worked backwards to make it look weaker.
Lol no. Your original argument is what is weak; he reworded your argument to show you what exactly it is you are advocating.


This is what I'm hearing:
'We exist because the planet we're on allows us to exist. If our planet didn't allow for us to exist, we wouldn't be here. If a different planet had a different kind of environment, it would be able to sustain a different life-form, just not ours.'
Explain to me where you find the error in this statement.


What I'm arguing is that even if you ignore everything else, the universe itself is so fine-tuned that if the physical constants governing the state of the universe were off by just a minuscule fraction, the universe would either expand too quickly for stars (and therefore galaxies) to form or would implode on itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization


And so on top of the fine-tuning of the physical constants, you need the fine-tuning of the rate conversion of hydrogen into helium to form stars and galaxies, never mind the position of the solar system in the Milky Way, the location of the Earth relative to the Sun, and the sustaining of life on Earth.
Okay? There are plenty of galaxies just like ours, a lot of which have planets that seem to be habitable or similar to ours.

Of course, there is no way to tell which ones actually are without being able to observe their atmospheres. I'm sure that with as many planets out there with optimal circumstances that life elsewhere is a very plausible idea. I don't know that for sure, and I'm not advocating that that is true. You, on the other hand, seem to be 100% sure that there are no other life forms other than the ones found on Earth, and that we're only possible with the help of divine intervention.


Of course it's easy to come up with convenient explanations by using the power of infinity. 'With infinite planets and infinite universes we're bound to find life somewhere else.' 'Life as we know it might not be able to survive on other planets, but other kinds of life we don't know about will.' 'Lucky is lucky, even when the odds are one in a hundred trillion.'

We've found lots of planets like Earth already. Let me know when one of them shows signs of life.
And now you're proposing an argument from ignorance. No one is saying that there is life on other planets. It has only been said to be highly likely.
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Posted 2/4/16 , edited 2/4/16

Drewkun88
See above comment. If karma exists, where did it come from? Or did it not have a source and instead just popped into existence?


You said in an early portion of your post that you have a hard time thinking of something like this existing without a deity. Hundreds of years ago, the idea that the motion of the planets was due to angels pushing them ways seriously considered plausible by some. Now we know it is just gravity. If karma and reincarnation exist, like gravity, they might just be natural processes that follow their own consistent processes. There is no plausible evidence for the existence of an afterlife at this time, and experiments that have been made to test near death out of body experiences have been negative. I merely wanted to point that the idea of there being life after death doesn't require a god of any kind.


Drewkun88
We've found lots of planets like Earth already. Let me know when one of them shows signs of life.


Given that your response to my criticism of the fine tuning argument basically just restated my points and ended with this line, I get the impression you think your argument is compelling because we cannot yet prove life exists elsewhere in the universe. Unless the SETI project eventually detects messages sent from another civilization or we develop faster than light travel, we are unlikely to get the proof you want, unless of course one of the other planets and moons in our solar system happens to contain life. Although we can deduce certain facts about exoplanets, we cannot image them directly or gather sufficient data to determine whether or not life exists there.


Drewkun88
Nope, all I meant was what I said. If there is no god then we really are all alone in the world and are left to fix monumental problems without any outside help. I was just trying to answer the OP's question. That's all.


Is that really true? The fine tuning argument is usually used as an argument for the existence of God. Were you just using it here as roundabout way of saying "without God, there would be no life"? Although your other points did directly answer the OP's question, I also saw your entire post as being a subtle attempt and both answering the question and providing reasons why God does and should exist.


Drewkun88
My understanding of evolution is not incomplete.


In your original post, you implied that without God, humans would only avoid doing evil and being completely selfish due to fear of prison. Humans have evolved to be both altruistic and selfish, and fear of prosecution isn't the only reason to avoid doing good. Evolutionary biologists often talk about the issue of altruism in their books. Human morality isn't knocked down a peg or two if God doesn't exist like Christians often think.
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Posted 2/4/16

Drewkun88 wrote:


EarthLight22 wrote:


Drewkun88

To me, karma is a process. A mechanism. I question how this mechanism was put into place. It would make more sense to me if karma was a mechanism devised by a deity. I have a hard time imagining a process like karma just coming into its being of its own, without sentience or will.

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And you would find it more believable that some divine being created the system?
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Posted 2/4/16
he doesnt..
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^ He does exist !!

Simply straight to the point and in short: If He didn't exist then there would be no world, nothing, nothing at all because God created this world, everything and everyone.
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If you really think about it. Does it really even matter if a god exist?

Unless this divine being is going to drastically change our lives on earth. People will just naturally their carry out their lives. Even if god presented itself. It really wouldn't be long for people to get over the fact and it would just be seen as common sense a god exist.
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Meh. God's existent doesn't concern me. I believe he probably exist. I just live life in my way without getting into the conflict of religions.
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...Then you simply act as if God doesn't.

If you believe God does exist, then you also act accordingly.

http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/articles/james-a.pdf
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