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Post Reply The reason AKB48-styled idol groups will never fly in the west
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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/11/16


drninja wrote:
This is not relevant. What's relevant is that the agency has the responsibility to take care of their idols, and that letting the idols get caught having relationships is really bad for business.

Small picture relevant no it's not, but only those incapable of seeing the forest for all the trees look only at the small picture. And yes the horror of a million fans seeing their dream girl going out on dates.Won't someone think of the over privileged masses of male fans. Spare me mate I'd question the sanity of anyone that hasn't found a boyfriend/girlfriend by the time they hit 16.


drninja wrote:
Japan already has underage models. Idols are a different thing.


Really how so. Time and again you Idol supporters claim it's a business of selling dreams, an image, etc. Seems to me that is exactly what your average model does. I don't see a whole lot of discussion surrounding their musical talents being part of that package. Though even by Pop standards ( admittedly not one of my top ten favorite genres) most Idols groups..seem subpar musically speaking . Doing nothing but rehashing the same tired themes and even music.
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Posted 2/10/16

Kavalion wrote:


Voc666IV wrote:
I'd of said the controversy surrounding the idol's personal lives EG not allowed to have boyfriends/girlfriends etc. etc. would be the bigger issue.


Yes, it seems unacceptable to try and control their personal lives like that.

There is nothing unacceptable about it, as already explained.


Ranwolf wrote:
Small picture relevant no it's not, but only those incapable of seeing the forest for all the trees look only at the small picture. And yes the horror of a million fans seeing their dream girl going out on dates.Won't someone think of the over privileged masses of male fans. Spare me mate I'd question the sanity of anyone that hasn't found a boyfriend/girlfriend by the time they hit 16.

Again: idols are a business, not some grrl power get-together. If a girl insists on having a boyfriend or getting railed by strangers, she can choose not to become an idol, or she can choose to quit.


Really how so.

If you don't even understand what idols do, why are you trying to have this argument?
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Posted 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:



drninja wrote:
This is not relevant. What's relevant is that the agency has the responsibility to take care of their idols, and that letting the idols get caught having relationships is really bad for business.

Small picture relevant no it's not, but only those incapable of seeing the forest for all the trees look only at the small picture. And yes the horror of a million fans seeing their dream girl going out on dates.Won't someone think of the over privileged masses of male fans. Spare me mate I'd question the sanity of anyone that hasn't found a boyfriend/girlfriend by the time they hit 16.


drninja wrote:
Japan already has underage models. Idols are a different thing.


Really how so. Time and again you Idol supporters claim it's a business of selling dreams, an image, etc. Seems to me that is exactly what your average model does. I don't see a whole lot of discussion surrounding their musical talents being part of that package. Though even by Pop standards ( admittedly not one of my top ten favorite genres) most Idols groups..seem subpar musically speaking . Doing nothing but rehashing the same tired themes and even music.


I think you've drifted off the topic of "why things won't fly here" into the territory of "idol fans are ____".

However, your response in itself pretty much proves the original point of the post further... The values you're considering certainly doesn't even enter into the arena where the practice originated:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ValuesDissonance (if you haven't read this before)

I'm perfectly sane, married, still like (some) idols.
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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/10/16

drninja wrote:




Really how so.

If you don't even understand what idols do, why are you trying to have this argument?


Because when something offends me to this degree I try to understand it before I decide if it truly offends me. I am not Anita Sarkeesian after all. But everything you've said thus far seems to be justifying my offense at this and little else.

After all it seems to be you expect the West to understand what is basically the exploitation of underage girls who are clearing lacking a true understanding of the ramifications of what they are signing. And at least in Canada minors are allowed to void their contracts without punishment, and only being obligated to return benefits received.
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Posted 2/10/16

drninja wrote:


Kavalion wrote:


Voc666IV wrote:
I'd of said the controversy surrounding the idol's personal lives EG not allowed to have boyfriends/girlfriends etc. etc. would be the bigger issue.


Yes, it seems unacceptable to try and control their personal lives like that.

There is nothing unacceptable about it, as already explained.



Unacceptable in one culture, the norm in another... It may or may not be possible to have a rational discourse regarding the gut feeling of right and wrong unless everyone in the discussion realize what it is they're dealing with (including sensibilities). Until then two people just talk past each other.

There was also a maybe lesser sort of cultural shock back when anime finally became a popular "thing" in the west, when Sailor Moon started American TV broadcast and there was an anime section(!) in Suncoast video stores. There was a push-back sense of "Japan is invading our culture with this Poke-y Mahn and Sailor Moon stuff, this fighting-evil-by-daylight-winning-love-by-moonlight stuff is bringing weird influences!"

Hopefully those talking-past-each-other stuff won't get too heated
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Posted 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:
After all it seems to be you expect the West to understand what is basically the exploitation of underage girls who are clearing lacking a true understanding of the ramifications of what they are signing. And at least in Canada minors are allowed to void their contracts without punishment, and only being obligated to return benefits received.

So basically what you're saying is that underage girls are too young to understand what they're doing, and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to sign contracts like this. But at the same time they are old and mature enough that they should be allowed to engage in whatever kind of sexual practises they want to without any supervision or comment.

The real issue here is that someone is imposing limits on the freedom of females, and as a feminist that makes you upset because you think females should be exempt from all rules, laws and consequences.
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Posted 2/10/16

nanikore2 wrote:


I think you've drifted off the topic of "why things won't fly here" into the territory of "idol fans are ____".

However, your response in itself pretty much proves the original point of the post further... The values you're considering certainly doesn't even enter into the arena where the practice originated:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ValuesDissonance (if you haven't read this before)

I'm perfectly sane, married, still like (some) idols.


Which is my entire problem with the premise of Idol groups if basic values like a contract that isn't straight out of some Fascist nightmare isn't considered a worthwhile value then I want my Country to have nothing to do with the whole thing. Luckily I rather doubt it will spineless eunuchs my countrymen have become but we still believe in individual freedoms and not that bullshit that seems to fly in Japan.










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Posted 2/10/16

drninja wrote:

[
So basically what you're saying is that underage girls are too young to understand what they're doing, and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to sign contracts like this. But at the same time they are old and mature enough that they should be allowed to engage in whatever kind of sexual practises they want to without any supervision or comment.

The real issue here is that someone is imposing limits on the freedom of females, and as a feminist that makes you upset because you think females should be exempt from all rules, laws and consequences.


Exempt entirely no, what I actually believe is that kind of wording should be voided from a contract an Idol group would sign. It's one thing to want an Employee to perform their job well, it's an entirely another kettle of fish to want to control their every waking moment basically.
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Posted 2/10/16
I blame religion and western politics. Westerns are just too offended by everything. Those pop idol groups aren't bad at all even wearing just lingerie or bikinis. It's cute and innocent. Westerns find this offensive? Oh yeah but violence or sexualized adults is acceptable?
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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:
Exempt entirely no, what I actually believe is that kind of wording should be voided from a contract an Idol group would sign. It's one thing to want an Employee to perform their job well, it's an entirely another kettle of fish to want to control their every waking moment basically.

Their private lives are not separate from their public lives. They are public figures whose job is to project a certain image, and part of that image means not being involved with boys.

If the head of PR for, say, Intel tweeted on his personal account that he would like to kill all niggers, what do you think would happen? Do you think people would be all like "well it's his his private life and personal opinions, who are we to interfere"? No, he would be fired immediately. And nobody would object.
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Posted 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:we still believe in individual freedoms and not that bullshit that seems to fly in Japan.


one word: paparazzi. (and they're far more prevalent in the west, if that wasn't obvious already)
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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/10/16


drninja wrote:
Their private lives are not separate from their public lives. They are public figures whose job is to project a certain image, and part of that image means not being involved with boys.


And that right there is why Idol's groups would never fly in the west mate. We fought a five and half year war against fascism that cost like 60 million lives. We're not about to give it the red carpet just because it comes in the form of girls in bikini's who signed messed contracts. Personal freedoms are kinda a big thing in the West mate.


drninja wrote:
If the head of PR for, say, Intel tweeted on his personal account that he would like to kill all niggers, what do you think would happen? Do you think people would be all like "well it's his his private life and personal opinions, who are we to interfere"? No, he would be fired immediately. And nobody would object.


And now you're trying to compare apples and oranges mate. That sort of thing would fall under an entirely new arena of legality and morality.

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Posted 2/10/16

namealreadytaken wrote:

one word: paparazzi. (and they're far more prevalent in the west, if that wasn't obvious already)


Who are bound by any number of laws and statutes. And more than one paparazzi is currently serving jail time or have had to pay fines for breaking them.
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Posted 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:Who are bound by any number of laws and statutes. And more than one paparazzi is currently serving jail time or have had to pay fines for breaking them.

> implying that stopped paparazzi from stalking celebs in their private lives, or posting provocative photos on magazines and what-not.

also, the west also sent a group of idols from S Korea back to their country (apparently, they couldn't google the idol group or something)
(S Korea is as capitalist as it can possibly get)
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Posted 2/10/16
dam it lol this is why I wish I was a Japanese girl and not a ugly ass white guy if I had the chance to do it over I would be born as a hot Japanese girl and I could be an idol signer at 15 with my iPhone 6+ and lots of money by the time I was 18 I could have my own place and a car
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