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Post Reply The reason AKB48-styled idol groups will never fly in the west
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Posted 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:


Voc666IV wrote:



No idea how it’s legal, but it is a thing. For example members of akb48 are contractually forbidden to have romantic relationships and are punished if they break that rule. An example of this was in 2013 when Minami Minegishi who was photographed leaving the flat of her boyfriend Alan Shirahama. She them posted a video on the internet with a shaven head, apologised for her actions and claimed she desperately wanted to remain in the band.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2013/02/01/music/akb48-members-penance-shows-flaws-in-idol-culture/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21299324


Geez and here I thought the Japanese were only assholes for not importing their games here...Goddamn that whole Island nation is fucked up seven ways to sunday ya know. How in the hell do you put that kind of wording into a legally binding contract?


Hifumi Okunuki has argued that the requirements to not engage in romance are not valid due to Japanese labour laws. However, the members of these idol groups are faced with a problem; if they try to taking the company to the courts, there is a very good chance that their career as an idol will be over as the company (or any other related companies) will most likely want nothing to do with them afterwards. However, it would probably only take one test case to set a precedent.

However, companies can get around the negativity of firing someone by instead making their work environment completely unpleasant to the point where a person quits. Japanese companies have a history of not firing someone but making it very clear that the employee is in no way welcome there. This is achieved by giving the employee no work and placing them next to the window and the person ends up as a madogiwazoku (window gazers). As being made a madogiwazoku is a sign of disgrace, the person is shamed into quitting.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2013/01/22/how-tos/akb48-unionize-and-take-back-your-lost-love-lives/
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Posted 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:
And that right there is why Idol's groups would never fly in the west mate. We fought a five and half year war against fascism that cost like 60 million lives. We're not about to give it the red carpet just because it comes in the form of girls in bikini's who signed messed contracts. Personal freedoms are kinda a big thing in the West mate.

Personal freedom doesn't mean the absolute freedom to do anything you like.


And now you're trying to compare apples and oranges mate.

Says the person who just compared Japanese idol groups to a war against fascism that cost 60 million lives.


That sort of thing would fall under an entirely new arena of legality and morality.

So personal freedoms are suddenly no longer a big thing? Or is it because you assumed that this hypothetical head of PR is male, and therefore doesn't need any rights?
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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:

Which is my entire problem with the premise of Idol groups if basic values like a contract that isn't straight out of some Fascist nightmare isn't considered a worthwhile value then I want my Country to have nothing to do with the whole thing. Luckily I rather doubt it will spineless eunuchs my countrymen have become but we still believe in individual freedoms and not that bullshit that seems to fly in Japan.



Companies in America does things differently... They restrict personal freedoms under the table.

Some companies do give you the choice of not working overtime. However, if you do this then prepare yourself for a less-than-favorable review come year end.

If you read some reviews of companies (glassdoor, granted not exactly unbiased by any means) you'd find that "work life balance" gets put to the back burner on company demand.

There is no real personal freedom in wage slavery.

Apple and a bunch of other companies got sued some time ago by depressing wages. Lawyers took the money, of course. There isn't going to be any real change. When it comes to making money, people doesn't come first. It's no different in the west. Thinking any different would be naive.

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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/10/16
There are a bunch of other barriers that could prevent an idol group from becoming successful/popular in the west.

Let's say you made an "American style" idol group, removing all or most of the controversy specific to Asian idol groups. That basically just means creating a group of like...a dozen teenage girls that sing cutesy pop songs about dreams and happiness and summer...

1. Is that aesthetic and style even popular right now?
One Direction might be the closest thing to that style of pop music, but they have an entirely different demographic, look, appeal, etc. They're not a dozen girls dancing in unison to cheery tunes about hair and makeup.

2. Would that girly-girl messaging even fly anymore?
Consider America's state of sensitivity, political correctness, feminism, etc. and it probably wouldn't. Which means they'd be singing about whatever everyone else sings about: partying, romance/break-ups, and being different/individual. That last one might be their best bet, because each girl could have a song that defines/describes their personality and such, but then you run into another problem:

3. The sheer size of AKB48 style groups, and their ever-changing nature.
It's hard enough to make a group of like 3-4 people equally popular. What happens when you have as many people as AKB48, or even just 9 like Love Live? It'll be hard to brand certain girls without stereotyping them as the "sporty one" or the "emo one," and some girls are bound to be much less popular and important than others.

An idol group could be a good way of testing the waters and launching solo careers, but the group itself would probably deteriorate pretty quickly, especially with any big roster changes. When the Top 2-3 girls leave, the 4th and 5th place girls couldn't just take their place. The whole thing might collapse. You couldn't just replace Beyonce and keep Destiny's Child going strong. There's a chance you could re-brand the group around the new girl, but that'd be a massive risk.
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Posted 2/10/16



drninja wrote:
Personal freedom doesn't mean the absolute freedom to do anything you like.

Totally missing the point.


drninja wrote:
Says the person who just compared Japanese idol groups to a war against fascism that cost 60 million lives.

Not the girls so much, they're just a bunch of people whom the public education system, their parents, and their own intelligence failed. I have more of a bone to pick with the unethical types that employ them and insist on them signing such a ridiculously Facist contract in order to be gainfully employed.


drninja wrote:
So personal freedoms are suddenly no longer a big thing? Or is it because you assumed that this hypothetical head of PR is male, and therefore doesn't need any rights?


You are really good at missing the point. The terminology of contracts and the committing of hate crime in a public setting are night and day mate.
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Posted 2/10/16

nanikore2 wrote:



Companies in America does things differently... They restrict personal freedoms under the table.

Some companies do give you the choice of not working overtime. However, if you do this then prepare yourself for a less-than-favorable review come year end.

If you read some reviews of companies (glassdoor, granted not exactly unbiased by any means) you'd find that "work life balance" gets put to the back burner on company demand.

There is no real personal freedom in wage slavery.

Apple and a bunch of other companies got sued some time ago by depressing wages. Lawyers took the money, of course. There isn't going to be any real change. When it comes to making money, people doesn't come first. It's no different in the west. Thinking any different would be naive.



Which is why I am glad I am Canadian mate, one of the few reasons I stay in this country of spinless eunuchus. That kind of thing gets shot down all the time here. Also I have never felt enslaved by the fact I am making a yearly salary. Perhaps the lack of backbone to change things for the better is responsible for that feeling amongst Americans and anyone else who feels that way really, regardless of nationality.
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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/10/16

Voc666IV wrote:



Hifumi Okunuki has argued that the requirements to not engage in romance are not valid due to Japanese labour laws. However, the members of these idol groups are faced with a problem; if they try to taking the company to the courts, there is a very good chance that their career as an idol will be over as the company (or any other related companies) will most likely want nothing to do with them afterwards. However, it would probably only take one test case to set a precedent.

However, companies can get around the negativity of firing someone by instead making their work environment completely unpleasant to the point where a person quits. Japanese companies have a history of not firing someone but making it very clear that the employee is in no way welcome there. This is achieved by giving the employee no work and placing them next to the window and the person ends up as a madogiwazoku (window gazers). As being made a madogiwazoku is a sign of disgrace, the person is shamed into quitting.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2013/01/22/how-tos/akb48-unionize-and-take-back-your-lost-love-lives/


Yeah if only one of them had the spine to set that precedent, but everyone is always afraid to be the first out of the trench aren't they?

As for that second bit, damn the Japanese are...slightly messed. I've been to Japan twice, speak it fluently, am starting to even understand Kanji, was raised by a Japanese adoptive father and I've never really delved into Japanese labour practices till recently. And I've got to say, the Japanese do remember they aren't allies of a Fascist nation anymore and can drop those sort of policies right?
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Posted 2/10/16

Ranwolf wrote:
Totally missing the point.

It is the point you are making. That females should be allowed to do whatever (unless you happen to disapprove, then of course they shouldn't).


Not the girls so much, they're just a bunch of people whom the public education system, their parents, and their own intelligence failed.

Oh, so now they're morons from dysfunctional homes. Nice.


I have more of a bone to pick with the unethical types that employ them and insist on them signing such a ridiculously Facist contract in order to be gainfully employed.

They don't need to work, and even if they do there are much easier and accessible jobs than idoling.


You are really good at missing the point. The terminology of contracts and the committing of hate crime in a public setting are night and day mate.

It's freedom of speech. You believe in freedoms, don't you? What's the problem?
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Posted 2/10/16
> calling everyone as "cowards"
> claiming to be fluent in Japanese, yet not knowing kanji (lol)
> comparing idols with fascism
> calling hard-working idol groups as morons who have a troubled background

i'm sorry, but i can no longer take some people here seriously. >.>
also, this thread is going down the bad place pretty quickly.
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Posted 2/10/16

namealreadytaken wrote:

this thread is going down the bad place pretty quickly.



I'd say it's revealing relevant controversies and problems that an idol group would face if an AKB48 style idol group was founded in the USA (or the west in general) albeit in internet forum fashion. the original poster suggested a reason why a sister idol group of AKB48 would not appear in the USA and subsequent posts made by others offered additional views and opinions on what challenges an AKB48 style idol band would face.
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Posted 2/10/16
The reasons I think idol groups wouldn't work in the west are as follows: The controversial music videos. The no-dating policy, out here the media tends to like relationship drama, the lack of this may draw attention away from the group.
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Posted 2/10/16

drninja wrote:


They don't need to work, and even if they do there are much easier and accessible jobs than idoling.



So let me get this straight. These girls obviously have some sort of hardcore passion about being idols, after all they are putting up with draconic and outdated rules in order to be one. And instead of making the chasing of their passions and dreams easier you think continuing this bullshit status quo is best.

I mean Christ mate even the most hardcore of Special Force units don't put that kind of barrier between themselves and prospective recruits. You're basically saying in order to chase their dreams these girls should put up with a discipline that not even say the Airborne Rangers of the United States Army are expected to live under.
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Posted 2/10/16
OP, it's funny that you mentioned Mickey Mouse Club, as that's where Britney Spears got her start. Her career could easily be considered successful. Perhaps you've heard of her?
In spite of how this thread has sidetracked into the topic of idol's freedoms, I had the impression that you were saying idol groups would never fly in America because our culture considers it wrong to sexualize teenage girls.
https://youtu.be/C-u5WLJ9Yk4
Both video and lyrics are blatantly sexual. I think she was 15 when she made the video. It even takes place in a school.

At the time, she told everyone she was a virgin, claiming to be a "wholesome catholic girl". So maybe that's why it wasn't very controversial? Well, as someone who comes from a catholic background, I can tell you "wholesome catholic girl" was an oxymoron from the get-go.
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Posted 2/10/16 , edited 2/10/16

cleruninja wrote:

OP, it's funny that you mentioned Mickey Mouse Club, as that's where Britney Spears got her start. Her career could easily be considered successful. Perhaps you've heard of her?
In spite of how this thread has sidetracked into the topic of idol's freedoms, I had the impression that you were saying idol groups would never fly in America because our culture considers it wrong to sexualize teenage girls.
https://youtu.be/C-u5WLJ9Yk4
Both video and lyrics are blatantly sexual. I think she was 15 when she made the video. It even takes place in a school.

At the time, she told everyone she was a virgin, claiming to be a "wholesome catholic girl". So maybe that's why it wasn't very controversial? Well, as someone who comes from a catholic background, I can tell you "wholesome catholic girl" was an oxymoron from the get-go.


Riiiight and notice that even by the time she left the Mouse Club she was still 13- I was talking about the Mickey Mouse Club

Sheesh I swear people would have a bone to pick on every single line of everything


Ranwolf wrote:

Perhaps the lack of backbone to change things for the better is responsible for that feeling amongst Americans and anyone else who feels that way really, regardless of nationality.


That what voters felt when they voted for Sanders and Trump in New Hampshire

So try not to lump everyone and everything together mmk?
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Posted 2/10/16

nanikore2 wrote:


That what voters felt when they voted for Sanders and Trump in New Hampshire

So try not to lump everyone and everything together mmk?


Sorry mate as a soldier I only have sympathy for those willing to fight for their beliefs and passions. Everyone else is a sub human coward in my eyes.

In other words if you aren't willing to fight for something better then ya deserve nothing.
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