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Post Reply Apple vs. The FBI
51569 cr points
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Posted 2/17/16

DragonFan1 wrote:

I see where he's coming from with this, but if they did this in a secure area with no wi-fi access or data access, only trusted personnel from the government and the Apple corporation, and a promise to absolute secrecy with the destruction of documents and the equipment used afterwards I don't see how they shouldn't be able to do this with one Iphone and then destroy it after that single use. An Iphone is a mixture of a telephone and a computer (thanks to how they were designed) with both publicly and privately accessible features. This is a fact no matter how you spin it. If the FBI is unable to use normal methods to find out more about terrorist plots like San Bernardino then how are they supposed to function anymore if they can't use what they have to solve this case? Criminals can just avoid them by hiding behind encryption technology and keep building it as Tim Cook describes. The FBI I feel may only be coming into a situation like this because any leads they may have had to other connections involving this matter are dried up.

I am only one of those general computer users that Tim Cook seeks to protect so please don't hate me, however, didn't people like Alan Turing, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc. build these machines or improve upon them to help fix problems that were unsolvable around the world?


The problem with this is that the FBI is essentially demanding Apple to make their products weaker and easier to hack. The FBI's argument is that this backdoor would only be used for this one iPhone used by a terrorist. That's not realistic at all. If Apple creates this backdoor, there's nothing to prevent it from being used against any iPhone. It's no exaggeration to say cyber crime would skyrocket if every phone came with a built in "please hack me" system and any ordinary criminal can get their hands on the keys. What the FBI is asking for is just too dangerous and it's about more than just a single isolated terrorist attack. For them to even suggest such a crazy idea shows either how ignorant they are on this issue or how they want power so much they're willing to jeopardize the average citizen.
Sogno- 
45766 cr points
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Posted 2/17/16
well i've have very little problem with my apple products (besides initial expense!) so i respect them for their technology at least, but to stand up to the government is a pretty wild thing they're doing. But they are correct; if they are able to create a "backdoor", then we will know it can be done and even if that "backdoor" is destroyed after one use -- the information is already there. It can be done. And someone else will do it, and exploit it.

also i like the breakdown for us non-techy people. yay on the marketing/editing team
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It doesn't matter.
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Posted 2/17/16
Microsoft buckled.
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21 / Australia
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Posted 2/17/16
Destroy them FBI.
27254 cr points
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27 / M
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Posted 2/17/16
Come on, there has to be a more elegant solution. If it's confirmed that these shooters used these phones, I don't see how it's unreasonable that the police ask to see the information so that it can help them. Although asking Apple to create a backdoor is pretty ridiculous. Why can't Apple just go into the phone itself and give pertinent information to the police?
runec 
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Posted 2/17/16 , edited 2/17/16

Morbidhanson wrote:
Why can't Apple just go into the phone itself and give pertinent information to the police?


Encryption. All data on your iPhone has been encrypted by default since iOS 8 including texts, photos, etc. The modern iPhone has a unique device key within the hardware itself. Which Apple does not keep a record of and cannot retrieve due to hardware protections put in place to prevent just such a retrieval.

This basically forces any attempt at cracking the phone to be run on the phone itself. But its designed and manufactured in such a way that its impossible for software to extract this key. It is also impossible to extract it using a firmware update. Because the iPhone has a built in self destruct. Attempting to update the firmware to the security hardware in question causes to destroy the existing access keys. Losing all access to the data on the phone anyway.

Even if Apple came up with a work around to directly level external computational power at cracking the device ID, the phone has an inbuilt brute force counter measure to gum up the works. It would basically take years to try and brute force it on a hardware level.

Brute forcing the passcode on the other hand would take like, half an hour tops if not for the failsafe the FBI want Apple to try and remove. Hence if its possible and Apple manages to succeed at doing it, it will utterly compromise basically their entire product line.

They would have to go back to the drawing board and everyone would have to buy a new phone unless they wanted all their data compromised. -.-

All so the FBI can get one dead guy's text messages.

8989 cr points
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M / Buttermilk
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Posted 2/17/16
I see people still like to bash microsoft
Posted 2/18/16
The only positive from this is that security is iterative and no doubt will make future generations even more secure. For example, if they lock down the separate secure enclave module against firmware changes cracking the passphrases becomes arduous or even impossible with delay up to an hour between passphrase guesses.
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27 / M
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Posted 2/18/16

runec wrote:


Morbidhanson wrote:
Why can't Apple just go into the phone itself and give pertinent information to the police?


Encryption. All data on your iPhone has been encrypted by default since iOS 8 including texts, photos, etc. The modern iPhone has a unique device key within the hardware itself. Which Apple does not keep a record of and cannot retrieve due to hardware protections put in place to prevent just such a retrieval.

This basically forces any attempt at cracking the phone to be run on the phone itself. But its designed and manufactured in such a way that its impossible for software to extract this key. It is also impossible to extract it using a firmware update. Because the iPhone has a built in self destruct. Attempting to update the firmware to the security hardware in question causes to destroy the existing access keys. Losing all access to the data on the phone anyway.

Even if Apple came up with a work around to directly level external computational power at cracking the device ID, the phone has an inbuilt brute force counter measure to gum up the works. It would basically take years to try and brute force it on a hardware level.

Brute forcing the passcode on the other hand would take like, half an hour tops if not for the failsafe the FBI want Apple to try and remove. Hence if its possible and Apple manages to succeed at doing it, it will utterly compromise basically their entire product line.

They would have to go back to the drawing board and everyone would have to buy a new phone unless they wanted all their data compromised. -.-

All so the FBI can get one dead guy's text messages.



I was not aware of the level of sophistication of these devices, heh. If you put it that way, no, there's no other solution and getting the guy's messages isn't worth it. It's not like he can shoot more people while being dead.
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68 / M / Columbia, MO
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Posted 2/18/16
Like runec suggested: You bought the gadget for its security features. Assuming you paid a lot of money for that modicum of security for prevention against anyone or any entity trying to tap into your communications and/or secrets without your permission why on earth should you trust that company to honor any selling promise if they buckle and allow "anyone" to entry into your private domain and violate your right to privacy without your permission in the future? It would be time to look for another security company that keeps their promise. Stand your ground, Apple.

That phone was the property of the county that employed that shooter. If the courts want to chase after a scapegoat go over there.
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31 / M / Seattle
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Posted 2/18/16
I guess that all we can say is that it is a good thing that companies like apple and google have already gotten in trouble for gathering and selling customer data behind the backs of the customers. This has forced them into being a good business that cares about their customers. Had they not been caught doing that stuff in the past they might not have cared as much.

Truth of the matter is that this would be made a public news story regardless and there is no way that apple could suddenly take the hit of no one lining up around the street a week in advance to buy their new phones. Apple's bread and butter is hardware after all. So I am not surprised they are trying to rope their customers into this discussion. They have very rabid customers after all.

I honestly do not know why the US government would think they could get away with this. If apple is forced to comply, it would take the complete flop of the next iphone to give apple enough evidence to sue the us government and make back all the money they would lose anyway. It is kind of funny how we fail to think things through.
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21 / M / UK
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Posted 2/18/16

PhantomGundam wrote:

The FBI has asked Apple to create a back door in their phones so they can get into an iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino shooters. What the FBI doesn't realize (or maybe they do and just don't care) is that doing so would put every iPhone in danger and also set a reckless precedent that tech companies have to compromise the trust and safety of their users if the government tells them to. Apple refused and now a federal judge has asked Apple to comply with the ridiculous demand.

Tim Cook plans to challenge that order in the next few days. Here's a statement he put on his website that goes into more detail about why he's opposing this demand:



http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

From what I've seen, experts all over the tech industry agree with Apple on this. Even Google's CEO tweeted his support for Apple's decision today.


FBI is at it again?
Why do they never give up
Humms 
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24 / M / CAN, ON
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Posted 2/18/16
People still buy from Apple?

I mean apple may have a better security, but come on. That's the only reason why people would buy. Too much Bullshit to deal with nowadays. Android all the way.
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40 / M / USA
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Posted 2/18/16 , edited 2/18/16
They already ask companies like Google and Apple for personal information throughout the year as it is (and some of those Google/Apple choose to comply with, others they deny)...

Let's not give them this ability. Our government already does enough as it is as a whole.

(ironic for me to say that)
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F / San Francisco
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Posted 2/18/16
I feel that, if you've committed a terrorist action, you've surrendered your rights as an American.

It's like with children - Your rights are privileges and if you can't behave, such as going out and killing people in the name of your God, you don't deserve those rights and should lose them.

There's a big difference between giving the government access to grandma's phone and giving them access to that of a terrorist. The government has no interest in photos of kids and grandkids, so the majority of Americans would be safe. But those that are sponsoring terrorism, either financially or through their actions, should have their clouds looked at regularly.
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