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Post Reply Apple vs. The FBI
10228 cr points
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F / United Kingdom
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Posted 2/19/16
How about they just open that one guy's phone then? Fair enough, looking at every single person's iphone is a bad idea. But that guy who killed Lee Rigby was a murderer and a terrorist. It's disgusting that Apple are protecting a murderer for something as stupid as customer privacy. He waived his right to any kind of privacy when he murdered an innocent person.
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26 / M / Socal
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Posted 2/19/16
what is this an authoritarian government?
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Rabbit Horse
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Posted 2/19/16

eclair-lumiere wrote:

How about they just open that one guy's phone then? Fair enough, looking at every single person's iphone is a bad idea. But that guy who killed Lee Rigby was a murderer and a terrorist. It's disgusting that Apple are protecting a murderer for something as stupid as customer privacy. He waived his right to any kind of privacy when he murdered an innocent person.



it's not a simple matter of just unlocking the guy's phone.
10228 cr points
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F / United Kingdom
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Posted 2/19/16




it's not a simple matter of just unlocking the guy's phone.


Why not? They made the phone, they can unlock it.
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21 / M
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Posted 2/19/16

eclair-lumiere wrote:

How about they just open that one guy's phone then? Fair enough, looking at every single person's iphone is a bad idea. But that guy who killed Lee Rigby was a murderer and a terrorist. It's disgusting that Apple are protecting a murderer for something as stupid as customer privacy. He waived his right to any kind of privacy when he murdered an innocent person.



The problem is that once you make a way to open a phone its available for all the phones. That one guy's phone was not in anyway special. It was a generic phone. If the FBI can break one phone they can break all the phones. In addition by allowing a crack into the phone other hackers, criminals, terrorists, etc. can do the same. Even if you don't tell someone how to break into the phone. The existence of the weakness will allow hackers in if they want it bad enough.

Ever see how quickly mods pop up that edit games by removing fps restrictions, etc.? These people are motivated enough to hack the game to have more fun with it within days of release. A backdoor into people's computers can provide hard cash, personal info (blackmail material), and other sensitive information. The motivation here is huge. I wouldn't be surprised if hackers found the same weakness the FBI would get within minutes if all the world's hackers decide to converge and find that weakness.

It is also worth asking if you trust the U.S. government with this power. The U.S. did not ask for NSA surveillance. It just did it. It hits harder if you aren't a U.S. citizen. What kind of information could the FBI want in this guy's phone anyways? I get that they want to see if there was anyone else involved, but shouldn't they try tracing their fire arms back to their dealers?

On the other hand you have a point. How do you collect information in an investigation without getting into that phone? A small, but important answer.

I didn't like how the U.S. Government framed this as a marketing campaign as this balance between security and freedom is serious. I doubt Apple would play hot potato with the U.S. government otherwise.

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F / United Kingdom
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Posted 2/19/16




The problem is that once you make a way to open a phone its available for all the phones. That one guy's phone was not in anyway special. It was a generic phone. If the FBI can break one phone they can break all the phones. In addition by allowing a crack into the phone other hackers, criminals, terrorists, etc. can do the same. Even if you don't tell someone how to break into the phone. The existence of the weakness will allow hackers in if they want it bad enough.

Ever see how quickly mods pop up that edit games by removing fps restrictions, etc.? These people are motivated enough to hack the game to have more fun with it within days of release. A backdoor into people's computers can provide hard cash, personal info (blackmail material), and other sensitive information. The motivation here is huge. I wouldn't be surprised if hackers found the same weakness the FBI would get within minutes if all the world's hackers decide to converge and find that weakness.

It is also worth asking if you trust the U.S. government with this power. The U.S. did not ask for NSA surveillance. It just did it. It hits harder if you aren't a U.S. citizen. What kind of information could the FBI want in this guy's phone anyways? I get that they want to see if there was anyone else involved, but shouldn't they try tracing their fire arms back to their dealers?

On the other hand you have a point. How do you collect information in an investigation without getting into that phone? A small, but important answer.

I didn't like how the U.S. Government framed this as a marketing campaign as this balance between security and freedom is serious. I doubt Apple would play hot potato with the U.S. government otherwise.



This is what I'm saying though. They're using the argument of "if we make a doorway into phones then everyone's phone will get hacked" as an excuse. Fine. Don't do that then. But just open and unlock that one guy's phone. They made the phone so they will be able to do that.

That's all anybody wants to see. Nobody is demanding to be able to see every single iphone's contents.
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20 / M
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Posted 2/19/16

eclair-lumiere wrote:

This is what I'm saying though. They're using the argument of "if we make a doorway into phones then everyone's phone will get hacked" as an excuse. Fine. Don't do that then. But just open and unlock that one guy's phone. They made the phone so they will be able to do that.

That's all anybody wants to see. Nobody is demanding to be able to see every single iphone's contents.


You don't seem to understand what opening this one phone means. If Apple creates a backdoor to get into this one phone, it can (and will) be used against any phone that runs on the same system. It would be a different story if this was some one of kind phone that nobody else in the world has, but in reality this is a phone that hundreds of millions of people own. Everyone's iPhones would be at risk if Apple created a backdoor just to get into one of their phones. That's why they keep fiercely insisting that they won't do this. The FBI and the federal judge here are ignoring their warning and want to put millions of people in danger.
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20 / F / You don't need to...
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Posted 2/19/16
I don't get it... you can't hack into one phone but you can hack into a computer? Why does changing one phone affect all the phones? Honestly anyone can hack into my phone-- I have never put a passcode and I've been using Apple products for 7 years now. If they know the software, they should be able to break into that guy's phone.
10228 cr points
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F / United Kingdom
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Posted 2/19/16



You don't seem to understand what opening this one phone means. If Apple creates a backdoor to get into this one phone, it can (and will) be used against any phone that runs on the same system. It would be a different story if this was some one of kind phone that nobody else in the world has, but in reality this is a phone that hundreds of millions of people own. Everyone's iPhones would be at risk if Apple created a backdoor just to get into one of their phones. That's why they keep fiercely insisting that they won't do this. The FBI and the federal judge here are ignoring their warning and want to put millions of people in danger.



Yes, I am well aware that lots of people have iphones. But are you seriously telling me that Apple, the people who created the iphone, can't unlock one without unlocking every single other iphone in the world? That is completely bullshit.
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20 / M
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Posted 2/19/16 , edited 2/19/16

MoxiRoxi wrote:

I don't get it... you can't hack into one phone but you can hack into a computer? Why does changing one phone affect all the phones? Honestly anyone can hack into my phone-- I have never put a passcode and I've been using Apple products for 7 years now. If they know the software, they should be able to break into that guy's phone.


All iPhones are encrypted so that hackers would have more trouble breaking into your phone. A backdoor to bypass that encryption (which is what keeps the phone safe) currently doesn't exist. If Apple created a backdoor for any reason, it's basically a key that can open any iPhone. They can create a backdoor to open this one guy's phone, but once that backdoor exists it can be used against any iPhone. They would be basically announcing to the world "hey, it's now possible to have a backdoor into any iPhone. None of our phones are secured anymore!"

It's just not possible to create a backdoor for one specific iPhone.


eclair-lumiere wrote:

Yes, I am well aware that lots of people have iphones. But are you seriously telling me that Apple, the people who created the iphone, can't unlock one without unlocking every single other iphone in the world? That is completely bullshit.


No, that's reality. Maybe if Tim Cook were to suddenly become a god, he could use magic powers to create a key that works on one phone but doesn't work on any phone that's the same model.
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Rabbit Horse
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Posted 2/19/16
maybe an analogy is in order.
suppose a company, say Napple, is responsible for providing locks that provides security for the homes of millions of people.
now, the goverment knows the house of one criminal, and is asking Napple to make a master key that unlocks that guy's house.
(but that can be used to unlock virtually any house they wish). hopefully you know understand why people are up on arms about this.
..or maybe you'll still insist and say that a master key can only be used in one particular case. in which case, no amount of explanation is likely to convince you otherwise.
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20 / M
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Posted 2/19/16
For anyone still wondering why Apple can't just hack one phone without affecting everyone else's phones, this is probably the simplest way to explain it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/18/why-you-should-side-with-apple-not-the-fbi-in-the-san-bernardino-iphone-case/


But that iPhone has a security flaw. While the data is encrypted, the software controlling the phone is not. This means that someone can create a hacked version of the software and install it on the phone without the consent of the phone’s owner and without knowing the encryption key. This is what the FBI — and now the court — is demanding Apple do: It wants Apple to rewrite the phone’s software to make it possible to guess possible passwords quickly and automatically.

The FBI’s demands are specific to one phone, which might make its request seem reasonable if you don’t consider the technological implications: Authorities have the phone in their lawful possession, and they only need help seeing what’s on it in case it can tell them something about how the San Bernardino shooters operated. But the hacked software the court and the FBI wants Apple to provide would be general. It would work on any phone of the same model. It has to.

Make no mistake; this is what a backdoor looks like. This is an existing vulnerability in iPhone security that could be exploited by anyone.


Apple isn't being asked to crack the password of a specific phone. They're being asked to create a backdoor into the system that the phone runs on. The same system that every iPhone operates on.
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Hoosierville
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Posted 2/19/16

eclair-lumiere wrote:




You don't seem to understand what opening this one phone means. If Apple creates a backdoor to get into this one phone, it can (and will) be used against any phone that runs on the same system. It would be a different story if this was some one of kind phone that nobody else in the world has, but in reality this is a phone that hundreds of millions of people own. Everyone's iPhones would be at risk if Apple created a backdoor just to get into one of their phones. That's why they keep fiercely insisting that they won't do this. The FBI and the federal judge here are ignoring their warning and want to put millions of people in danger.



Yes, I am well aware that lots of people have iphones. But are you seriously telling me that Apple, the people who created the iphone, can't unlock one without unlocking every single other iphone in the world? That is completely bullshit.

You know nothing about computers, programming, or security and yet you are saying were full of shit? When you create a truly secure system then the only person that can access it will be the owner of that system. If the phone was designed right then no one not even apple can access it. Unlocking it isn't as simple as lock picking a lock.

The phone has full encryption which if done properly and with a secure password can take 10,000 years to try to decrypt without the password. Assuming apple wasn't spying on their users then not even apple will have the password. To make matters worse the phone was setup to self-erase after so many failed login attempts.

Also all I phones are clones of one another so if they actually manage to unlock one it signals to all hackers that there is a backdoor ready to be exploited. Once its found everyones information is at risk.

Learn about how computers work and programming before you go spouting nonsense all over the internet you FBI shill.
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116 / F
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Posted 2/19/16

PhantomGundam wrote:

The FBI has asked Apple to create a back door in their phones so they can get into an iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino shooters. What the FBI doesn't realize (or maybe they do and just don't care) is that doing so would put every iPhone in danger and also set a reckless precedent that tech companies have to compromise the trust and safety of their users if the government tells them to. Apple refused and now a federal judge has asked Apple to comply with the ridiculous demand.

Tim Cook plans to challenge that order in the next few days. Here's a statement he put on his website that goes into more detail about why he's opposing this demand:



http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

From what I've seen, experts all over the tech industry agree with Apple on this. Even Google's CEO tweeted his support for Apple's decision today.


Well yeah, its kind of impossible. Plus the NSA scans everything just under a different program's name now, so the FBI has no excuse when it comes to this. It's just a ploy to get rid of our freedoms to safety and privacy...even if it means being safe from a rouge government or government agent for example. Although to be honest....what's the court going to do? They have no legal power (it says so in the constitution actually its part of the balance of powers thing/idea) to force Apple to comply. All they do is make rulings. If Apple chooses to ignore this no one can legally stop them. End of story. Although again, I have to add...what the FBI is asking is kind of...impossible. And they know it too.
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Hoosierville
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Posted 2/19/16

MoxiRoxi wrote:

I don't get it... you can't hack into one phone but you can hack into a computer? Why does changing one phone affect all the phones? Honestly anyone can hack into my phone-- I have never put a passcode and I've been using Apple products for 7 years now. If they know the software, they should be able to break into that guy's phone.


You hack by using exploits, holes, bugs, and good ol user stupidity. If none of those apply then you can't hack outside of brute force attacks or packet sniffing. The phone will self erase after so many login attempts so brute forcing is out of the picture. Hacking is actually quite difficult when your user isn't stupid and their device is secure.

I phones and most computers all use the same base code. Its pretty much copy and paste X millions. If you find a hole in one you find one in all of them. Updates and patches try to fix such things,. If you fail to update for too long eventually you get hacked due to newly discovered weaknesses that script kiddies are exploiting.

That's not hacking.... hacking takes skill and knowledge. Pressing the power button or swiping the screen is not hacking its opening an unlocked device.

If they know the software then they will know it can't be broken into as far as they know. Typically the goal is to prevent people from being able to hack you.
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