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Post Reply National Pride?
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29 / F / Toronto, Canada
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Posted 2/24/16 , edited 2/24/16

Ranwolf wrote:

And I am going to have disagree with yours. If even half of what you say was true the world would be sunshine and rainbows. Instead me and my brothers and sisters in arms keep having to pay the butcher bills in places we can't even pronounce let alone spell.

Though I do have to agree there is something messed up about a world where I and countless others have to get blood on hands to keep this ole rock spinning. But the root of that problem is not with people who think like me mate. That is solely the fault of these so called millions and millions of people failing at their jobs, at finding something better then apathy and ignorance of what the rest of the world is really like.

For the most part the 1st world is a democratic one. Meaning it's citizens can change how they are governed, the path their country takes and the way it interacts with other nations. But for the large part they don't, they don't vote, they certainly don't influence the polices their governments make nor the way they handle international relationships.

And because of that I have no faith in anyone not in a uniform. They have never changed anything on a scale large enough to matter. Civilians are too wrapped up in their own local and frankly petty squabbles to see the world around them is not a very nice place. And that there are plenty of things out there that would gladly see them burn. Precisely because they have shown no compassion nor ease the burdens their own short sighted governments have inflicted upon them.

And because of that soldiers are the only thing making a change. Bloody and ultimately short lived change but change nonetheless. Something that they can be somewhat proud of.

I never suggested that the world is "sunshine and rainbows", on the contrary, I acknowledged that the military is necessary (a "grim" one). The world is not necessarily a nice place, but it certainly can be at times. I realize that this comes down to fundamentally conflicting worldviews, but I argue that the world isn't as terrible as you make it seem. There is violence, but there is also the good in people, and in their communities. Because honestly, if you don't believe that, then why even bother with serving your nation at all? Why pour literal blood, sweat, and tears into saving something that isn't worth saving? I've simply seen too much to believe that people aren't on the whole worthwhile.

Do you honestly believe that soldiers are the only people who can change things? What of the authors whose works change the world? Of the reverends at the hearts of their communities? Of even the politicians who do inspire people? I realize that this language is devolving into violet prose, but let's be honest, we were heading there ever since, "...having to pay the butcher bills in places we can't even pronounce let alone spell."

The fact is that societies, governments, militaries aren't monoliths, they're made up of individuals, you would know that. I realize how it can look at times, it's easy to point to the masses rallying for Trump (for example) and proclaim society ignorant, or to look at the goverment's policies which are causing damage in the world, but you of all people would know there's always dissent. When you were serving, was there no disagreement, discussion, playful ribbing, hazing... whippings... mmm, like uh- the point is that open condemnation of the world as one way ignores the fact that reality is far more complex than that. For every apathetic, ignorant bigot, there's the engaged intellectual.
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Posted 2/24/16 , edited 2/24/16

JaydraDawn wrote:


I never suggested that the world is "sunshine and rainbows", on the contrary, I acknowledged that the military is necessary (a "grim" one). The world is not necessarily a nice place, but it certainly can be at times. I realize that this comes down to fundamentally conflicting worldviews, but I argue that the world isn't as terrible as you make it seem. There is violence, but there is also the good in people, and in their communities. Because honestly, if you don't believe that, then why even bother with serving your nation at all? Why pour literal blood, sweat, and tears into saving something that isn't worth saving? I've simply seen too much to believe that people aren't on the whole worthwhile.

Do you honestly believe that soldiers are the only people who can change things? What of the authors whose works change the world? Of the reverends at the hearts of their communities? Of even the politicians who do inspire people? I realize that this language is devolving into violet prose, but let's be honest, we were heading there ever since, "...having to pay the butcher bills in places we can't even pronounce let alone spell."

The fact is that societies, governments, militaries aren't monoliths, they're made up of individuals, you would know that. I realize how it can look at times, it's easy to point to the masses rallying for Trump (for example) and proclaim society ignorant, or to look at the goverment's policies which are causing damage in the world, but you of all people would know there's always dissent. When you were serving, was there no disagreement, discussion, playful ribbing, hazing... whippings... mmm, like uh- the point is that open condemnation of the world as one way ignores the fact that reality is far more complex than that. For every apathetic, ignorant bigot, there's the engaged intellectual.


I have as you put it poured literal blood, sweat, and tears in saving something I have rapidly lost faith in because that was the promise I made to my adoptive father on his deathbed. And for my own sanity I have to believe tomorrow will be better then today and if not tomorrow then the next day . That I have to have faith in a country and even a world that Sophie, my adoptive father , and my friends loved. Most of you make that a very hard task indeed. Harder than anything the Canadian Armed Forces have ever asked of me.

At the same time this nation and it's ideals are still great enough in my mind that it is worth it. Worth the scars and the nightmares and trying to effect change even if the only thing I ever proved good at is living a soldier's life. That to me is what true National Pride is. Not changing things at a community level, or even a provincial one, but a national one. Even if you aren't the kind of person people listen to nor heed.

And people are fine, I know several stellar examples of humanity . But as soon as they gather in their millions under a flag they either become great or they become short sighted fools. Usually a mix of both. Most of the time the great ones outnumber the fools but that isn't the case anymore.

And yes I do believe soldiers are the only ones now that can effect positive change. it has been a long time since a civilian in my mind has made a sweeping national change let alone an international one. Most of the time when a civilian has made change it's lead to even more work for a soldier.
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Posted 2/24/16
I was an american soldier and all they did was take advantage of us use us up break us down and throw us in the trash when we got out giving our pitiable sums of money for the severe mental and physical damage we have sustained. i will be lucky to live into my 50's now. we as a country kill so many innocents torture random civilians and rape country's of their resources. i didn't join to bully my fellow soldiers or innocent civilians but all they would do is brag about how they got another soldier to kill himself or how he killed entire familys. if thats the kinda crap it takes to love your country then what is hating it? we have no businesses in the middle east. you can love your country by taking care of the people in it and loving people who love it enough to immigrate into it. you can vote for officials who wish to make life better for everyone and abolish poverty. so don't give me this Serving your country trash. we ain't in a world war and we ain't saving anyone. The real hero's of this world are the ones who fight for their beliefs with their time,effort and soul people who stick up for each other when they are being wronged. We shouldn't simply love our counties should care for humanity as a whole and the earth itself and the nature that we are a part of.
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Posted 2/24/16

nerevaraine wrote:
We shouldn't simply love our counties should care for humanity as a whole and the earth itself and the nature that we are a part of.


For what it's worth mate I happen to agree with you. Civilians have yet to show me they are capable of the same level of dedication to their country and world as a soldier is to the doing what has to be done yet. Maybe when they do I'll change my opinion but I am not holding my breath.
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Posted 2/24/16
you do draw a point it is hard to trust those who haven't been though enough or proven themselves to me. american soldiers are different though they mostly join out of poverty. our military is really corrupt. i know this first hand i fought it tooth and nail when i was in.i feel if someone shows their dedication to anything i deem respectable than i can trust them easier. but i feel patriotism and nationalism is a buncha garbage. i care more about the big picture. perhaps canadian military is different i dont know. but our military is over-funded and under-trained and does not have dedication to the greater good. oh and to top that off our guns and equipment are trash.i would know i was a helicopter mechanic. and the guns i used didnt work unless i filled them with oil constantly and even then they would jam like hell.
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Posted 2/24/16 , edited 2/24/16

nerevaraine wrote:

you do draw a point it is hard to trust those who haven't been though enough or proven themselves to me. american soldiers are different though they mostly join out of poverty. our military is really corrupt. i know this first hand i fought it tooth and nail when i was in.i feel if someone shows their dedication to anything i deem respectable than i can trust them easier. but i feel patriotism and nationalism is a buncha garbage. i care more about the big picture. perhaps canadian military is different i dont know. but our military is over-funded and under-trained and does not have dedication to the greater good. oh and to top that off our guns and equipment are trash.i would know i was a helicopter mechanic. and the guns i used didnt work unless i filled them with oil constantly and even then they would jam like hell.


I don't know I fought alongside plenty of Americans in my time in Afghanistan, hell your country had the most troops on the ground after all. And I didn't see anything worse then odd supply and logistics guy trying to pull off the old it fell out the back of a truck routine. And they seemed just as steady under fire as the rest of us, barring of course the rooks who you expect to freak out a little. I mean we all remember our first fire fight right.

As for the equipment I never had any issue with it and 95% of the gear the CAF uses is American made barring the rifles which are just Canadian licensed and manufactured versions of the M16, and M4 you Americans use.. Hell about the only thing not American in origin were our Leo 2s and the various trucks we used .

Though I suppose being a much smaller army the CAF is a little more selective then most. After all we know we'll never have the numbers so we tend to focus on quality over quantity. But I never felt as if I was being asked to do anything ethically wrong even when our missions involved objectives set forth by American commanders .
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Posted 2/25/16

Ranwolf wrote:


nerevaraine wrote:
We shouldn't simply love our counties should care for humanity as a whole and the earth itself and the nature that we are a part of.


For what it's worth mate I happen to agree with you. Civilians have yet to show me they are capable of the same level of dedication to their country and world as a soldier is to the doing what has to be done yet. Maybe when they do I'll change my opinion but I am not holding my breath.


I respect the individual views of others, but I think it is narrow minded to suggest that civilians do not show dedication to their country or the world or, rather, it is single-minded. That soldiers alone effect change is simply wrong. The military is an arm of the government not an entity of free will; while it may be that you get the dirty work, it is just that--a profession that you've chosen. The mentality is skewed. Servicemen and women garner respect because they "defend freedom." That is, rather, a romantacized image when, in the modern world, it would most often be better described as "shoving it down others' throats."

What about all of the underappreciated members of society? What about the nurses who attend the infirm and sacrifice time with their families to work twelve hour shifts? What about volunteer missionaries who spend months or years in third world countries trying to help improve the quality of life for the impoverished? What about the farmers who produce raw materials and foodstuffs? What about the steelworkers or the workers on assembly lines? What about the public school teachers who pass up high paying careers to educate children and direct after school activities that keep them off the streets? What about the scientists and engineers who work endlessly to develop the very technologies that you use?

Martin Luther King, Jr. was not in the military. Ghandi was not in the military, nor was Mother Teresa. Susan B. Anthony was not in the military. Galileo, Newton, Tesla, Einstein, da Vinci, Eleanor Roosevelt: civilians--more or less. Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking: civilians. Any one of these people did more for their countries, did more for the world, did more in the name of technology, science, and humanitarianism than most soldiers ever have or ever will, but they aren't "capable of the same level of dedication?" Society doesn't need laborers or educators? It doesn't need science or forward thinking?

Some simply have a completely different perspective. That is mine. I am not trying to be offensive, but being in the military does not make one important; it does not automatically grant someone respect and admiration. The military is not the machine but only a cog in it--no more or less important than any other, and no more or less integral to keeping it running. There is power in holding a weapon, but there is also power in never picking it up--philosophy for the day.
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Posted 2/25/16 , edited 2/25/16

PandAndy wrote:

[

Martin Luther King, Jr. was not in the military. Ghandi was not in the military, nor was Mother Teresa. Susan B. Anthony was not in the military. Galileo, Newton, Tesla, Einstein, da Vinci, Eleanor Roosevelt: civilians--more or less. Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking: civilians. Any one of these people did more for their countries, did more for the world, did more in the name of technology, science, and humanitarianism than most soldiers ever have or ever will, but they aren't "capable of the same level of dedication?" Society doesn't need laborers or educators? It doesn't need science or forward thinking?

.


Mate I also said it's been a long time since a civilian has made a real difference. And your examples mostly prove that. Of the examples you've listed all of them have been dead longer then we've been alive. Barring Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking. I'll let the Bill Gates thing go, cause between Him and Steve Jobs the modern age of computing was ushered in.

But how is Stephen Hawking,a man whose work is largely theoretical, some of it outright unproven, contributing to society at large. His work never made anyone safer, it doesn't even put food on someone's plate let alone effect national and international change that betters people's life.
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Posted 2/25/16
I ignore this post for a day and it started the debate I actually wanted. Everyone has made very good points here and the fact that there great differences is what I like about the sense of nationality! You have no sense of it, fine! You feel that you can only feel it by fighting for your country, great! This is the whole idea behind nationality, there is no right or wrong answer! It's been really intresting to see all these different opinions!

That being said I think a somewhat seperate argument has arised. I do find it hard to agree that only the military can effect positive to change, there are a great number of things that need to be changed in every country and the answer will not always be the military. For example responding to international disasters (earthquakes, tsunamis, pandemics) requires great cooperation between the military and agencies like the Red Cross. This is only using major worldwide events as an example. As I have already seen mentioned there are those everday jobs like doctors, emergency response teams, teachers and more who contibute to the running of the country. This can consquently feed back into how these people may feel that are serving their country and increase or create their sense of nationality. Or it may not, they must just feel they are doing a job they love!

I know everyone is never going to agree on this, but that is the problem with this subject! It is so vast, can cover many areas and effects so many people! Thanks for the great but respectful debate guys and gals!
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Posted 2/25/16

DaveyDafydd wrote:

I ignore this post for a day and it started the debate I actually wanted. Everyone has made very good points here and the fact that there great differences is what I like about the sense of nationality! You have no sense of it, fine! You feel that you can only feel it by fighting for your country, great! This is the whole idea behind nationality, there is no right or wrong answer! It's been really intresting to see all these different opinions!

...

I know everyone is never going to agree on this, but that is the problem with this subject! It is so vast, can cover many areas and effects so many people! Thanks for the great but respectful debate guys and gals!


Blast! We played right into your hand, well played you ingenious scoundrel!

Either way this thread has been one of the more interesting I've come across. I don't have anything else to add though, I feel I made my point, and it feels like the discussion regarding military service has come to ahead, as we are now debating points which are completely subjective (even if I vehemently disagree with Ranwolf, and honestly don't think there's two legitimate sides to the argument). Either way, nice to see this kind of discussion.
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Posted 2/26/16
we fought a war with a country that didn't attack us for a horrid president and his terrible objectives afganistans a little different than iraq but we shouldn't stick our nose where it doesn't belong and let bugas wars for resources waste our time when we have actual issues in this country. solve those and you'll be a hell of a better hero than a soldier. i would also be pissed if i were canadian because the US dragged them into a war. also yeah you guys do have much better guns in your military. its not like american guns are trash but the ones we use in the military are low budget crap. except perhaps our 50 cal and the 240b, we used to use great guns like the 1911. but not anymore.
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Posted 2/26/16 , edited 2/26/16

nerevaraine wrote:

we fought a war with a country that didn't attack us for a horrid president and his terrible objectives afganistans a little different than iraq but we shouldn't stick our nose where it doesn't belong and let bugas wars for resources waste our time when we have actual issues in this country. solve those and you'll be a hell of a better hero than a soldier. i would also be pissed if i were canadian because the US dragged them into a war. also yeah you guys do have much better guns in your military. its not like american guns are trash but the ones we use in the military are low budget crap. except perhaps our 50 cal and the 240b, we used to use great guns like the 1911. but not anymore.


Meh I consider the camel jockeys I put out of commission doing a great international service. They are nothing but drug dealers, they force women into sexual slavery, they sell guns and death to the highest bidder. So I apologise if I think killing pimps, drug dealers, and merchants of death a greater service to the world then baking cookies for some damn meaningless bake sale. I have no sympathy for people who complain about the price of fresh produce when there are children out there going hungry, or forced to wear a soldier's uniform and carry a rifle.

As for being dragged into the war Canada chose to go. My countrymen are many things but mindless puppets we are not. We went into Afghanistan because it was the right thing to do, because until they are ground into dust the same shit will just keep happening.

Also mate the C7 and C8 are the exact same rifle as the M16 and M4. You know why, ya can freely swap parts in between the two , you can take the bolt or barrel assembly from an M16 and drop it into a C7. Load a mag and keep firing like nothing happened.
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