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Post Reply In Defense of Political Correctness
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Posted 2/24/16

runec wrote:


MiharuTheMaid wrote:


pandrasb wrote:

I'm fine with self censorship, just not fine with censoring other people's ideas because either we don't agree with them or they offend us. I'm for freedom of ideas and speech.


^this



anti-freeze wrote:
Let's start off with the most vile and notorious problem using PC as a weapon. Most PC worshipers will say that the constitution protects you from government repercussions but not social ones. As such, a great number of PC worshipers will use PC as a weapon to get people in trouble with work or their community.


Right, lets all take a step back here for a moment.

Legally speaking:

Number One: Censorship is the government restricting what you can and cannot say typically by suppressing or redacting media.

Number Two: Free speech is not a defense against the consequences of speech.

So "PC worshipers" ( whatever that is ) are entirely correct. The Constitution protects your right to free speech but does NOT protect you from the consequences of said speech. Because while you have free speech, so does everyone else. You have the right to be an asshole but everyone else has the right to call you an asshole.

Free speech is not a defense against criticism though it is often invoked as such. Nor is censorship being told you shouldn't be saying or acting a certain way by a private entity. Though again, it is often invoked as such.



anti-freeze wrote:One example that I get a laugh out of all the time is when we talk about the amount of White actors, authors, directors, artists, in America. Yes that is going to happen when you live in a country that has 60% to 70% of one particular race.


If you are attempting to make the argument that Hollywood reflects population statistics and therefore no racism is involved, you may wish to recheck your numbers. As Hollywood does not reflect said numbers, let alone Los Angeles. By your logic, half of actors, authors, directors and artists coming out of Hollywood should actually be Hispanic. -.-





Side note, wasn't there just a series of news articles about how many mixed race Latinos and Asians no longer self identify as such, skewing our demographics info..
runec 
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Posted 2/24/16 , edited 2/24/16

HighProfile wrote:
Side note, wasn't there just a series of news articles about how many mixed race Latinos and Asians no longer self identify as such, skewing our demographics info..


Possibly? The US census categories get reaaaally specific and include categories for mixed races. But some people do self identify one way or another.

Eh, few hundred more years we'll all be mixed race anyway except for 12 guys squatting on a wildlife refuge in Oregon. ;p

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Posted 2/24/16 , edited 2/24/16

runec wrote:
Right, lets all take a step back here for a moment.

Legally speaking:

Number One: Censorship is the government restricting what you can and cannot say typically by suppressing or redacting media.

Number Two: Free speech is not a defense against the consequences of speech.

So "PC worshipers" ( whatever that is ) are entirely correct. The Constitution protects your right to free speech but does NOT protect you from the consequences of said speech. Because while you have free speech, so does everyone else. You have the right to be an asshole but everyone else has the right to call you an asshole.


And one of the consequences the Constitution does not protect you from, is that you legally do not HAVE "Free Speech" everywhere.
As the Supreme Court decided (Tom Smothers v. CBS Networks, 1969), 1st Amendment Free Speech only exists between the government and the owner or publisher of the speech, like a newspaper publisher or a network president.
Legally, Obama can not issue a presidential order shutting down Fox News for acting like an asshat, but CNN or NYTimes can make the decision to fire any of their reporters who offend them if they so choose...It's their paper. Similarly, most "1st Amendment defending" shock comics soon find out how much "free speech" they have when they end up banned for life from cable or college campuses.
On a personal level, you can make a speech at the public park, since that's what "public" things are there for, but if, like Occupy Wall Street, you do it at some business building, security and police have every right to protect the owner by gently escorting you out.

It's those shock idiots who give "Un-PC" a bad name, but Un-PC is based on two very simple concepts:
1) I do not "owe" respect to someone I have never met simply based on race, creed or gender, without knowing his achievements,
2) I have no right to be "punished" or to make restitution for any crime I have not personally committed.
...Why does it have to get more complicated than that?
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Posted 2/24/16

runec wrote:


HighProfile wrote:
Side note, wasn't there just a series of news articles about how many mixed race Latinos and Asians no longer self identify as such, skewing our demographics info..


Possibly? The US census categories get reaaaally specific and include categories for mixed races. But some people do self identify one way or another.

Eh, few hundred more years we'll all be mixed race anyway except for 12 guys squatting on a wildlife refuge in Oregon. ;p


Here's one off hand
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/17/mixed-marriages-are-changing-the-way-we-think-about-our-race/

(I'm curious why I had to hard code the link though.. The little button crashes me.)
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Posted 2/24/16

anti-freeze wrote:

Let's start off with the most vile and notorious problem using PC as a weapon. Most PC worshipers will say that the constitution protects you from government repercussions but not social ones. As such, a great number of PC worshipers will use PC as a weapon to get people in trouble with work or their community. Living in the modern age it is really easy to ruin a business by spreading lies about its employees. Then a company must choose, do they take a risk on their employee or do they just get rid of him or her? Which brings us to the next point.


Well, first, it was my impression that 'spreading lies about employees' is what we call 'slander,' which I had thought does have government repercussions. But more importantly, if it's so "really easy to ruin a business" by accusing them of, I guess, being un-PC, why don't companies just call all of their competitors racist? I mean, apparently, serving e-coli to their customers didn't end chipotle, but If someone would just call them misogynist, they'd be finished? I don't know, I guess I just think that, even if I were a rabid racist, all my bosses would know that I'm an otherwise competent employee that doesn't wear his KKK hood to work. If I were consistently turning away clients with racist remarks, they'd have heard about it. I dunno, I guess I just don't think people are as dumb as you seem to think they are. They do stupid shit from time to time, but largely, I just don't see any of the stuff you're suggesting in daily life.


PC is often times used as a method to prevent discussion. I cannot count the number of times people have called me a racist or msygonist online because they do not want to discuss an issue. Watch a social justice snowflake argue with someone. Once they have been completely defeated they will use PC as an excuse to raise their voice or get the other party to concede something. These are tactics aimed at silencing the discussion because they appear to be upset. It is a trick to give the losing party a way to remove the topic completely or change the topic to a more favorable one.


And yet, how many times have you seen the opposite? Someone is criticized for a remark they've made and respond with something like "I'm just speaking my mind, why are you so mad? I'm just being honest." They rarely realize that it's not the speaking that arouses anger but the mind. I think, most of the time, SJW's -- for all the over-exaggerated sense of suffering -- actually prefer people to speak their minds. What gets them mad, I think, is not what people are saying, but what it suggests about what they are thinking. SJW's are often wrong, misguided, or overly sensitive, but that doesn't mean that they're all always like that, and it seems to me that this characteristic is independent of 'PC-ness.' I've seen atheists, christians, Republicans, Democrats, sports fans, mathematicians, and all manner of people try to stop conversation simply by ignoring the other person's opinion, or just flatly denying that their opponent could possibly have the right idea about anything. There's nothing unique to PC about this phenomenon. Surely you're not claiming that PC behavior is wrong because some people don't have arguments for it?


The last thing I will note is how it is used to shame people.


This, honestly, just makes me think of South Park. "Let's make America completely shameless."

Really, shame is an awesome thing, much like it's counter-part, pride. Being proud of the things you've done well can be as excellent a motivator as being shamed over the things you've done that you feel aren't good. Truth is, it doesn't bother me when someone accuses me of doing something wrong that I fully support. If, however, someone convinces me that I've done something wrong, a feeling of shame can act as a stimulus to improvement.

But here's the interesting part. Because when, for instance, one person tells another they were offended by something, let's say the word 'faggot,' and someone responds "you're just trying to make me feel bad" or "you're just making an excuse so you don't have to listen to anything that you disagree with." Or, in the instance of race "your just trying to start a race war" or "you're just trying to take advantage of your race" -- who, really, is trying to shut down the discussion here? And yet, the fact that some people will try to use this as a way of shutting down conversation doesn't mean that they don't have good reasons, or even that they're wrong. Not all "anti-PC" people are like that.

But for you to say that something shouldn't be said to a person because it makes them feel ashamed is, simply, not something I agree with. As to the "you should feel ashamed to be part of the majority" bit, I really think that's a minority opinion among 'PC folks.' Although I have heard some along the fringes saying exactly that, most minorities are content in spreading the understanding that having a majority share of something comes with advantages. Since thought drives behavior, it's usually the conviction that understanding should drive social change. Very few say anything close to "white people are living shameful lives."


In all reality, it sounds like you are making some kind of argument to give respect regardless of whether or not it is earned. That is stupid, plenty of people do not deserve respect on all sides of the spectrum. Respect is earned, not given. PC people like to pretend that is not the case though.


I hadn't mentioned respect at all, but yeah, I guess we can get into that. Respect is always earned. I agree. I have no respect for my brother as a Pilot, for instance. He's never flown a plane before, but I reckon he'd be terrible at it. I bestow my respect based on the qualities of the things in question. I respect concrete as a building material. I respect lions as ferocious killing machines. Likewise, I respect humans for the capacity for pain, empathy, thought, creativity, etc. People have these things to variable amounts, and my respect for them varies with their qualities. But I reckon, If I were given complete knowledge of every human being that's ever existed, I could find something about every single one to respect. Even if you disagree with everything he says, you can still respect Hitler's passion and oratory skill, for instance. Simply put, yes, respect is earned, but I simply do not believe there's anyone that has absolutely nothing respectable about them. The odds just seem really low. Not that any of this seems to be relevant to the validity of Political Correctness, but you asked, so...
Posted 2/24/16
People need to be more honest. If you're racist, just come forward about it. if you have something offensive to say, just do it. P.C. infringes on any freedom of speech people have left.
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Posted 2/24/16

zangetsushi wrote:

People need to be more honest. If you're racist, just come forward about it. if you have something offensive to say, just do it. P.C. infringes on any freedom of speech people have left.


You'd get fired. Even Trump got fired from some business liaison positions and lost some awards. There's a lot to lose from saying what you think.
Posted 2/24/16

Kavalion wrote:


zangetsushi wrote:

People need to be more honest. If you're racist, just come forward about it. if you have something offensive to say, just do it. P.C. infringes on any freedom of speech people have left.


You'd get fired. Even Trump got fired from some business liaison positions and lost some awards. There's a lot to lose from saying what you think.


Exactly. P.C. messed everything up. It's hypocritical, limp-wristed and dishonest. The world is morally bankrupt enough that we don't need a bullshit system involving P.C. just adding to the facade people wear. It's disgusting like the use of euphemisms in order to make something sound more important that it really is. Calling shit a waste product doesn't change it, it's still shit. P.C. has been referred to as the Devil by a good number of folks and will good reason. It isn't realistic and it's only use is to shut people up about certain things. Another article of conformity destroying individualism.
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Posted 2/24/16

zangetsushi wrote:
Exactly. P.C. messed everything up. It's hypocritical, limp-wristed and dishonest. The world is morally bankrupt enough that we don't need a bullshit system involving P.C. just adding to the facade people wear. It's disgusting like the use of euphemisms in order to make something sound more important that it really is. Calling shit a waste product doesn't change it, it's still shit. P.C. has been referred to as the Devil by a good number of folks and will good reason. It isn't realistic and it's only use is to shut people up about certain things. Another article of conformity destroying individualism.


Some vibrant descriptions there. P.C. is simply what we practice to avoid criticism and public backlash. It's a smart strategy and our business associates will sever ties with us if we don't practice it. The root of the problem would be the intolerant mob mentality of SJWs. But, can we really expect the lower-class rabble to not be lower-class rabble? Probably not. Honestly, I'm not sure if the world was ever different from this.
runec 
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Posted 2/24/16

HighProfile wrote:
Here's one off hand
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/17/mixed-marriages-are-changing-the-way-we-think-about-our-race/

(I'm curious why I had to hard code the link though.. The little button crashes me.)


Makes sense. I imagine you would gravitate towards one or the other growing up and establishing your own self identity. I also imagine it gets to be a pain in the ass to explain your heritage the more complex it is. Especially when you also have the central identity of the country you were born in ( America ) in the mix as well.

runec 
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Posted 2/24/16

zangetsushi wrote:
Exactly. P.C. messed everything up. It's hypocritical, limp-wristed and dishonest. The world is morally bankrupt enough that we don't need a bullshit system involving P.C. just adding to the facade people wear.


,,,oooookay. So you're saying everything was rainbows and unicorn farts in the 80s but then that damn PC came along in the 90s and ruined everything? Riiight.

Posted 2/24/16

Kavalion wrote:


zangetsushi wrote:
Exactly. P.C. messed everything up. It's hypocritical, limp-wristed and dishonest. The world is morally bankrupt enough that we don't need a bullshit system involving P.C. just adding to the facade people wear. It's disgusting like the use of euphemisms in order to make something sound more important that it really is. Calling shit a waste product doesn't change it, it's still shit. P.C. has been referred to as the Devil by a good number of folks and will good reason. It isn't realistic and it's only use is to shut people up about certain things. Another article of conformity destroying individualism.


Some vibrant descriptions there. P.C. is simply what we practice to avoid criticism and public backlash. It's a smart strategy and our business associates will sever ties with us if we don't practice it. The root of the problem would be the intolerant mob mentality of SJWs. But, can we really expect the lower-class rabble to not be lower-class rabble? Probably not. Honestly, I'm not sure if the world was ever different from this.


Puerile banter will never die. One term I can agree with P.C. on; business model. Aside from that, it will always stink of the turd behind a mask. None of us are without personal flaws. Just go ahead and spout the n-word once in a while. Get it out of your system. It helps. Some will do this all the time outside of earshot so they don't get caught up in a bad situation spouting epithets.
Posted 2/24/16

runec wrote:


zangetsushi wrote:
Exactly. P.C. messed everything up. It's hypocritical, limp-wristed and dishonest. The world is morally bankrupt enough that we don't need a bullshit system involving P.C. just adding to the facade people wear.


,,,oooookay. So you're saying everything was rainbows and unicorn farts in the 80s but then that damn PC came along in the 90s and ruined everything? Riiight.



Close. The 80's were all lollipop farts because NOTHING HAPPENED.
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Posted 2/24/16
Some Steve Hughes seem relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
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Posted 2/24/16
pvc pipes
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