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So what the point of feminism?
Posted 3/2/16 , edited 4/5/16
Disclaimer I am going to be an asshole. Devil advocate.
Me. What the point of Feminism? Feminist People.

is a range of political movements, ideologies and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

Me. Ah, cult.

Me. In all seriousness what the point of inventing feminism?
Feminist. Well nobody cares about our rights and so we invented feminism.
Me. OK let me rephrase it. Why did you feel the need to create a new word for something that already existed in the first place?
Feminist what?
Me. Do you know what Egalitarianism is? Feminist no. People do you know what Egalitarianism is? No or yes?
Me. Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal")—or, rarely, equalitarianism or equalism—is a trend of thought that favors equality for all people. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Me. You create a word for something that already exists in the first place.
Me. sir why is it so important to you to force a cabinet to have a gender ratio of equality rather than to be as efficient as possible?

Feminist. Because equality.
Me That stupid. That just making things equal for the sake of being equal. That not a real thing. Yes everybody deserves a chance but people are not equal. There are things men are better than women and vice versa. That doesn't mean there are not exceptions to the rule but to pretended everybody is equal is childish.

Feminist. Sir, you are an asshole.
Me. What wrong with being an asshole? You have people identified themselves as a unicorn or some furry animals.



Here some questions here for you guys.
Why does feminists have such a bad stigma?
What exactly when wrong with it?
Why does feminists let the crazies go uncheck? Unchallenged ?
What can be done to fix feminism?
Is there anything you hate about feminism?
Is there anything you like about feminism?
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Posted 3/2/16
LOL
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14 / M
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
What if men were supose to be better then women in the first place... like, men are stronger and emotionally stronger Jesus was a man...
Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
Today's third wave feminists are out to blame men for all their problems, they could give two shits about equality.
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
Botch and moan perhaps? Your guess is as good as mine. Modern activism is.. Well yah.
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
The problem with feminism is that it focuses on WOMEN'S rights rather than on PEOPLE'S rights. While that wouldn't normally be a problem, feminism takes women's rights too far by getting rid of other people's rights in the process. Feminism says it's purpose is gender equality, but giving women rights while taking away men's rights isn't equality, it's favoritism.
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
Idk & tbh idc but wut I do know is that it's suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper ez to antagonize em which makes me very very very happy.
Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16

relt95 wrote:

The problem with feminism is that it focuses on WOMEN'S rights rather than on PEOPLE'S rights. While that wouldn't normally be a problem, feminism takes women's rights too far by getting rid of other people's rights in the process. Feminism says it's purpose is gender equality, but giving women rights while taking away men's rights isn't equality, it's favoritism.


Like black lives matter but gender-centric?
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
The problem with feminism is that men and women are not equal and never will be. Now i agree that they should get paid the same as a man would at a particular job, The problem is that when you get to the military and such, you can't lower the standards of the training. There is a reason nobody watches the WNBA. There are some things that women can't do better then men. They can however clean a kitchen better than a man, or raise a kid better. JK LMAO
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16

KarenAraragi wrote:


relt95 wrote:

The problem with feminism is that it focuses on WOMEN'S rights rather than on PEOPLE'S rights. While that wouldn't normally be a problem, feminism takes women's rights too far by getting rid of other people's rights in the process. Feminism says it's purpose is gender equality, but giving women rights while taking away men's rights isn't equality, it's favoritism.


Like black lives matter but gender-centric?


Exactly!

Everyone's lives matter.
Posted 3/2/16

Madhatter8 wrote:

The problem with feminism is that men and women are not equal and never will be. Now i agree that they should get paid the same as a man would at a particular job, The problem is that when you get to the military and such, you can't lower the standards of the training. There is a reason nobody watches the WNBA. There are some things that women can't do better then men. They can however clean a kitchen better than a man, or raise a kid better. JK LMAO


I do not agree with equal pay in principle alone. If we are talking about a living wage where everyone get pay a living wage. I agree. But if we are talking about something where your pay is base on your results and abilities. I don't agree.
For example. If we talk about firefighters then yes. But if we talk about animation jobs for example. I don't agree. You should get pay base on how good you are. That being say regardless of the job you have. There has to be a living wage for everybody regardless of your job.
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Posted 3/2/16
Money.

It all comes down to money.

And I'm not talking about the "wage gap."
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/7/16
Well, the backlash against feminism may be a natural consequence of the movement moving into grayer areas than before. Earlier on, the problems were more straightforward. Should women have the right to vote? Absolutely. Should they be considered the property of man? No fucking way.

But back in the day, the norm in many societies was the opposite. Women did not have the right to vote, and they were considered property of men. And there were PLENTY of folks who staunchly defended the status quo. Nowadays anyone who claims to prefer the 1800s to today would rightly be called out as a misogynist.

However, those problems are old stuff, and the issues feminists raise today don't have particularly straightforward answers. Questions about how women are dehumanized and objectified in media, how attractive women are disproportionately favored due to marketing paradigms biased towards male audiences, how there are a multitude of double standards they skew perceptions of both males and females. And there's no straight-up black or white answer that'll make everyone happy.

Now, many feminists see these issues as an extension for the battle of equality that they've been fighting for years. That in and of itself goes a long way in explaining some of the self-righteousness and anger some of them have. If I claim to be a Twilight fan, I'm called out for supporting submissive women and abusive relationships. Now personally, I think any feminist who accuses me as such is full of shit, but in her mind, the history of our society has long encouraged submissiveness in women and turned a blind eye to abusive relationships, so I kinda see where she's coming from. In the minds of feminists, the battle for equality never ended. And indeed it hasn't, it's just that in many cases we can't agree who the good guys and bad guys are anymore. And since radical feminists are the most vocal about their ideology, and often lump people like me (and others on this forum) with the "bad guys", we justifiably resent them for it.

But this resentment has the nasty side effect of opening the door for true misogynists and assholes to sneak in with those who are just trying to defend our honor from folks who're a little too self-righteous and arrogant for everyone's good. The end result being that we can't differentiate sincere feminists from arrogant moral guardians, and feminists can't differentiate reasonable criticism from true misogyny. That's why some people want to coin "egalitarianism" to try and differentiate good feminists from asshole feminists, and that's also why feminists won't accept forfeiting the label of their movement. Because for all they know, people with a reactionary misogynistic agenda want to destroy the word "feminism" in order to stifle discussion on gender inequality and discrimination.
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Posted 3/2/16 , edited 3/12/16
I know I'm going to regret this, but this is a topic dear to my heart, so here I go.

First off, disclaimers: I am a (straight) man, a high school world history/political science teacher, news translator, former journalist, and feminist/LGBT+ activist (even if perhaps not as involved as I wish I was).

Why did I put those there? Because they tend to be the most likely targets of ad hominem attacks (gender, orientation, employment/education level, experience, agenda).

Now then, onward to the topic.

Why Feminism?

Technically, OP is correct -- the concept of equality of rights exists within the framework of egalitarianism. However, where the OP's argument falls through is that historically, egalitarianism has been male-centred, not universal. Even in the French Revolution's famous "liberté, égalité, fraternité" slogan, women were excluded from consideration. When the Declaration of the Rights of Man was passed in the new French Republic (a historical first for Europe), women were deliberately left out of the language used (to such an extent that the women of the Revolution decided to publish their own declaration, which was subsequently ignored by the all-male National Assembly). It wasn't a matter of women overreacting, either; women had already been left out of major decision-making committees and councils. Virtually no credit has historically been given to the women who marched on Versailles until very recently for their role in bringing the French monarchy to its knees.

In addition, feminism is a movement that truly took off in modernity (the historical age, not the present; though, historically speaking, feminism has existed in one shape or another since the ancient civilisations) as a result of female demands for voting rights -- something that even in the so-called progressive Republics of the 19th century, had been kept from them, with very few exceptions. In fact, it's a matter of historical record that some native tribes in the Americas (like the Iroquois) allowed female voting long before the Republic ever did. But I digress.

Based on the rather rational desire for equal representation (after all, they are ~50% of the global population), women organised and demanded the vote in what we now call the women's suffrage movement. Over time, they achieved their goal, but that's when they began to realise that gender-based discrimination had been institutionalised in other ways, such as pay gaps (which do exist, believe it or not). Thus, a broader, feminist movement that moved beyond simple voting rights was organised to demand that these so-called democracies own up to their own propaganda and give all citizens equal rights.

Moreover, contrary to relt95's argument that the feminist movement is entirely about promoting women, rather than all people, the feminist movement involves women of every single ethnicity, as well as their non-female allies, all of whom are working hard to promote equality, not superiority. If a feminist tells you otherwise, you might be dealing with a radical, and they are no more representative of feminists than the Ku Klux Klan is representative of White Christians, or ignorant, stereotypical rednecks are of Southerners or Americans in general.

Make no mistake: women are not alone in this fight -- those of us men who love the women in our lives, who want to see their hard work compensated justly, who want to ensure that they are protected from unwanted harassment, from rape, from discrimination, from domestic violence, etc...we are all behind the feminist movement, even if we might know it or decide to deny it.

As I mentioned in the opener, I have my own agenda here: I have a younger sister and two nieces I would kill for, and a mother I owe everything for raising me to be the man I am, as well as countless aunts and female cousins who are each hardworking, intelligent, respectful women. I fight not for myself, not because I have no self-respect, but for them. They have a right to every right I have, to every protection I have, and to every recourse I have under the law.

Is that really such an unreasonable thing to ask?

I'm also not going to touch the Black Lives Matter vs. All Lives Matter discourse, as that's another pandora's box entirely (though I can say that it's being worryingly/horrifyingly simplified).

EDIT: Well, dang. I didn't notice the questions on the bottom; apologies for that.

Let's see if I can answer them, in order:

1. As mentioned in regionlockedout's post, the backlash is likely the result of the feminist movement moving into grayer areas (far beyond the absolutes like voting rights and individuality). I would personally also blame the "rubber band" effect, in that the enemies of feminism, being pushed long enough, have seized the chance offered by Third Wave feminism to vilify an otherwise noble cause.

2. Nothing "went wrong with it." No more than in any other ideology, anyway. The only problem feminism has, just as any other philosophy out there, is that radicals have attempted to hijack its message for their own extremist ends.

3. How exactly would they check them? There is no one feminist organisation out there that regulates everyone else. In the end, the radicals are exercising their right to free speech. All we can do is just drown those voices out with the more sensible message.

4. Nothing needs to be fixed. See above.

5. Nothing, really. Seems pretty sensible.

6. It's what's right.
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