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Theoretical Afterlife
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Posted 2/10/08
I came across this thread and found it very interesting and would like to share this to everyone for discussion. This philosophical topic was thought up by Lother4. I made a few grammatical fixes because there were parts that were kind of missing something for the sentence to make sense. The original thread can be found here: http://www.debateforums.net/vb/showthread.php?t=6548



This requires a bit of an introduction, but I suddenly started thinking of the nature of consciousness.

What is the conscious? Not in the sense of "This is right and THIS is wrong," but in the sense of "I am". It is the combination of all the senses and the various processes of the brain.

This thought led to another: What is the consciousness? When I thought of this my immediate response was 'the brain' and its material makeup and composition. This in turn led to a thought experiment:

A brain floats in a vacuum. We will assume that the brain is kept alive by some unknown means. The consciousness in the brain is existing on the information being fed to it, whatever that may be. What would happen to the consciousness if the brain was de-moleculerized, scattered into its base atoms. Consciousness ceases; the end. All the atoms then, however, are reassembled into the exact molecules that they were before they were scattered. The brain is perfectly reassembled, every atom and molecule perfectly replaced to their exact and original position: a perfect replica of the original brain. Scratch that, this IS the original brain.

What happens to the consciousness in this experiment? I think we can assume that it is likely that the experience would be no different then being under general anesthetic or having a dreamless sleep: consciousness ends; consciousness resumes.

Easy enough.

Unfortunately, I began to think of another, more mind f**king thing:

Two brains in each float in their own respective vacuum. Lets assume that they are made up of the exact same number of atoms, have the same weight, have the same proportions, and have the same size. Each brain is de-molecularized, but now half of the atoms (in equal proportions) are swapped between the vacuums. In vacuum A we have half brain A, half brain B, and in vacuum B vice versa. The matter in vacuum A is made, same as thought experiment 1 above, into a perfect structural replica of brain A, again vice versa for vacuum B. So brain A for all intents and purposes remains the exact same and brain B for all intents and purposes remains the exact same.

Now what happens to the consciousness A & B?

If the consciousness is matter based:

Either the consciousness is in composition of the brain, which is impossible. We experience continuing consciousness while our brain cells undergo mitosis and the various atoms are in a flux from the atoms we absorb through our diet and lose through cell death. See Ship of Theseus.

--OR--

The consciousness is in the structure, alas also impossible. If there were many brains all of exact structure then they would each be generating a different consciousness.

Hmmmmmmm.......

So I researched the nature of the consciousness experience, which contemporary brain science suggests is housed in the electro magnetic feild generated by the action potential of neurons. Aha! Now I was on to something!

So I separated the consciousness into two different objects: There is the self and the person.
The self now is the I AM while the person is the processes of reason/emotion and memory. Together, they create the conscious.

The electro magnetic field is the SELF and the brain fulfills the role of the PERSON in a human being.

So is the electro magnetic field the "soul"? Your computer that you are on right now has memory (RAM and Hard Drive) and reason (Processors), and disturbingly generates an electro magnetic field when running these processes. So it is very likely that your computer is a very rudimentary consciousness: the EM field is the "self" and the hardware the "person".

In fact everything that generates electricity generates an electromagnetic field. If the field is indeed generated then there are trillions upon trillions of potential consciousnesses in our universe, each one only waiting for a potential "person" to be generated by. Think of all the consciousnesses that could be in existence right now in other brains, computers, strange nebular machinery, even the workings of the universe itself could be host to some sort of universal consciousness!

Is this proof of Theism?


Discuss! =) I'll be writing my own response later on when I find the time.
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Posted 2/10/08
handy hint #9356 - no one is gonna read this topic
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25 / M / In the darkness s...
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Posted 2/10/08
yeah this topic just doesn't interest me i mean when i die i die that's it.
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the intro is too long and boring to read fyi...anyways...i dunno abt afterlife. there are many theories...but no one really knows...right??
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Posted 2/10/08
^ If you guys don't have anything to contribute to the discussion or if you're too lazy to read a simple post, please refrain from posting. It's off topic and it's considered spam. This is an extended discussion forum and if you don't have the commitment to engage in some decent discussions, then GTFO! By the way, that first post is nothing compared to what I've seen before so stop complaining about the intro being too long. It's preceisely that way so it stirs you to make a good discussion instead of a simple yes or no question.

As for my thoughts, I am quite sleepy it's 4:30AM so I'll be simplifying things. I think it was creative that the consciousness can relate to a simple computer. However there are significant differences between the two. The computer, though highly sophisticated and can do wonders, is nothing without dictation from some type of input. Our brains on the other hand may not solve equations in an instant but our intuitive processes are very unique and special and limitless thought processes can me procured from our imagination. It's our minds in the first place that made it possible to invent the computer.

[Move Zig]
Posted 2/10/08

CrashAriMP5N2O wrote:

^ If you guys don't have anything to contribute to the discussion or if you're too lazy to read a simple post, please refrain from posting. It's off topic and it's considered spam. This is an extended discussion forum and if you don't have the commitment to engage in some decent discussions, then GTFO! By the way, that first post is nothing compared to what I've seen before so stop complaining about the intro being too long. It's preceisely that way so it stirs you to make a good discussion instead of a simple yes or no question.

As for my thoughts, I am quite sleepy it's 4:30AM so I'll be simplifying things. I think it was creative that the consciousness can relate to a simple computer. However there are significant differences between the two. The computer, though highly sophisticated and can do wonders, is nothing without dictation from some type of input. Our brains on the other hand may not solve equations in an instant but our intuitive processes are very unique and special and limitless thought processes can me procured from our imagination. It's our minds in the first place that made it possible to invent the computer.

[Move Zig]


Lawl~ Don't worry, they are kids under 16....you can't expect from them that much, they are still children...
I think it is interesting..^.~

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, I began to think of another, more mind f**king thing:

Two brains in each float in their own respective vacuum. Lets assume that they are made up of the exact same number of atoms, have the same weight, have the same proportions, and have the same size. Each brain is de-molecularized, but now half of the atoms (in equal proportions) are swapped between the vacuums. In vacuum A we have half brain A, half brain B, and in vacuum B vice versa. The matter in vacuum A is made, same as thought experiment 1 above, into a perfect structural replica of brain A, again vice versa for vacuum B. So brain A for all intents and purposes remains the exact same and brain B for all intents and purposes remains the exact same.

Now what happens to the consciousness A & B?


Well, in my opinion every single molecule from each brain has important informations which can only be combined with the same brain's molecule. Cuz this information that each molecule is filled with can only be red by the familiar molecules with which they did share the original information. We could compare this to computer programs..lets say that you have two different data reading programs, which means certain data written with program A can't be red(or maybe just partly red) by program B and vice versa. Thus, the new AB brain combination wouldn't work out, it would simply be defect.
But if you would take brain A and brain B, and totally de-molecularise A and B would be only partly de-molecularised, and then re-molecularise the A in combination with the de-molecularised part of B, then it might be possible that B part would live in symbiosis with brain A and integrate itself with the A consciousness. Which would lead to something like flashbacks caused by the B molecules, but they wouldn't make any sense, or just partly. The memories and emotions of the original brain A would somehow interact with the few informations of the molecules of the brain B, which would lead to senseless/disturbing flashbacks...something like that.


The electro magnetic field is the SELF and the brain fulfills the role of the PERSON in a human being.

So is the electro magnetic field the "soul"? Your computer that you are on right now has memory (RAM and Hard Drive) and reason (Processors), and disturbingly generates an electro magnetic field when running these processes. So it is very likely that your computer is a very rudimentary consciousness: the EM field is the "self" and the hardware the "person".

In fact everything that generates electricity generates an electromagnetic field. If the field is indeed generated then there are trillions upon trillions of potential consciousnesses in our universe, each one only waiting for a potential "person" to be generated by. Think of all the consciousnesses that could be in existence right now in other brains, computers, strange nebular machinery, even the workings of the universe itself could be host to some sort of universal consciousness!

This part is pretty interesting. But of course we can only speculate.
I just see a problem with how would this electric fields get integrated into the "hardware". Also, lets say that some electric fields were never used with hardware, which means that they don't have a memory nor emotions, somehow dead on the spiritual side. Somehow, we can compare this to the idea of informatics, you have to program this electric fields, feed it with information, otherwise it would just be a zombie.
But of course it would be interesting...but first we need to be able to put this electric fields into a potential body.....

This could also be a reference to the fact that God did maybe loose his hardware/body, and that's why he is communicating with us through so-called angels. We could see the Angels as something like the reading programs who are able to read God's data/mind and transfer the messages to humanity. Whatever the reason might have been for God loosing his body(maybe the devil did steal it from him, the devil as in humanity, since we are his reflection, which could also be a reference to God's and humanity's brotherhood).
But who wants to stay without a body? It must be a not very comfortable feeling when you have to totally rely on someone else, which in this case are the angels. So he is sending people messages through angel Gabriel to bring us to worship him/God. And it is said that if you really believe in something then it will be there. Which means if every single human would concentrate his faith into God, then this would mean that we humans could give God with our believe his body back. But!!! The seed of the devil did spread through generations of humanity, and will influence us in our belief, which would lead to doubt. Doubting that there is a God.
This would actually also excuse why God doesn't/can't help us, due to the hypothetical fact that he did loose his body to the devil/humanity. Lets say that God and the Devil were combined in one body, but each mind, God's and the Devil's, want their own body, so they did quarrel over the body, and God did loose. This would also explain why God made so many errors while creating the world and it's beings. Since he was having something like a second personality, which in this case would be the Devil, and due to this it might have happened that the Devil did overtake the Godly body for a while, and influence the creation in a bad way, something like planting his evil seed into humanity, with the apple story in garden Eden. Which would be in this case the snake, that did persuade Eve to eat the apple and giving it later to Adam. And then God did overtake the godly body again, and wondered why Eve and Adam were eating the apple, and then he threw them out of the Paradise.
And then later he and his brother/devil had this fight over the body. God lost. So the Devil had the upper hand and did send more of his evilness to Earth/humanity.
And as humanity began to reproduce itself, and getting with every generation more desperate/evil, God's heart did hurt and so he sent Arch-angel Gabriel with the message...and so a religion formed(Judaism). With the faith of humanity, God believed that he could weaken his brother/devil and win the body back. But the devil of course wouldn't agree with God's plans and told the corrupted Arch-angel Gabriel that he should go back to Earth with a new fake message from God(in fact devil's message), and so it comes that Christianity formed, and afterwards, based on the same idea Islam formed.
This theory would actually agree with the fact that the Jews are the chosen-ones by the real God. And the other religions were infected with the devil's seed. It looks like God will never be able to get his body back.....

This is just a crazy theory of mine....if it doesn't make sense, don't worry...I am fucking high...higher than Mt.Everest(not literally) Lawl~
^.~

Flo~
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MidnightZorya wrote:
Lawl~ Don't worry, they are kids under 16....you can't expect from them that much, they are still children...^.~


Yeah I suppose you're right ^_^;

Anywho I just read your thoughts above. Very interesting and I'm impressed. On your first comment, it also struck me how things may or may not work out or if they do it will be completely different. Your analogy of the program reading a certain file type is a great example. I guess it can be speculated that some of the data (thoughts, memories, processes) might be conveniently read by another conscious mind. A good analogy would be a universal program that can read several different kinds of file types. This is probably related to forming good communication between people. I've also come up with another analogy with the use of base sequences in DNA. Recombination happens a lot with the formation of gametes. For the most part, there is nothing fatal about it (such as a base substitution might still procure the same amino acid) thus going back to the de-molecularization of two minds and swapping some components, it might still encrypt data and not have much negative consequence. However as you said there might be parts where the data is corrupted or doesn't make sense in which case my DNA anology would take deletion or mutation as an example.

Your second comment was highly informative. Though I don't know much about this particular theory surrounding a different view on God, creation, and the state of man, I can very well understand the logic behind it even though it is still subject to speculation. Well done, you've made my day. =)

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Posted 2/10/08

CrashAriMP5N2O wrote:


MidnightZorya wrote:
Lawl~ Don't worry, they are kids under 16....you can't expect from them that much, they are still children...^.~


Yeah I suppose you're right ^_^;

Anywho I just read your thoughts above. Very interesting and I'm impressed. On your first comment, it also struck me how things may or may not work out or if they do it will be completely different. Your analogy of the program reading a certain file type is a great example. I guess it can be speculated that some of the data (thoughts, memories, processes) might be conveniently read by another conscious mind. A good analogy would be a universal program that can read several different kinds of file types. This is probably related to forming good communication between people. I've also come up with another analogy with the use of base sequences in DNA. Recombination happens a lot with the formation of gametes. For the most part, there is nothing fatal about it (such as a base substitution might still procure the same amino acid) thus going back to the de-molecularization of two minds and swapping some components, it might still encrypt data and not have much negative consequence. However as you said there might be parts where the data is corrupted or doesn't make sense in which case my DNA anology would take deletion or mutation as an example.

Your second comment was highly informative. Though I don't know much about this particular theory surrounding a different view on God, creation, and the state of man, I can very well understand the logic behind it even though it is still subject to speculation. Well done, you've made my day. =)

[Move ZIG]


Well, humans are able to bring everything to a new level of perfection, which would also make it quite probable that my objections can be nullified. I was plainly basing them on the informations that the quote you've quoted did provide...^.~

Also, I was just letting my fantasy flow through my mind and then let it move down to my fingers...Lawl~
But this would actually make a nice story...Just need to formulate it a bit more story-like, and then make my new religion/creation theory....lawl~
Now how will I call this new theory?(jk)

Flo~
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HEY just bcuz im under 16....
this forum topic is too complicated for me
srry if i said that this was boring tho...
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Okay, that was a bit of a read, gonna have to give some time for that to sink in. But first some commentary.
The EM field theory is new to me, I haven't thought of it that way, with an EM field being related to consciousness, the processing factor of the mind. That's interesting, but what I find strange is our power of imagination, in comparison to the computer example, with its EM fields and processors. What part of our brains gives us the ability to think for ourselves, unlike machines and AI?
Eh my thoughts are a little unorganized, so I might have to clear this up later, if someone reads it.
Actually I've lost the plot completely. I'll come back after a few posts.

Oh, and Flo/MidnightZorya, your God theory sounds like some epic story lol, but since a while back, I haven't been able to stomach things about a God that seems to care a lot for us, with the Angels and all that.
However, from what I see, the God theory is almost as much speculation as the assumptions we make on this topic of our consciousness (or at least the deeper side of it).

Tired.
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iamzed wrote:

yeah this topic just doesn't interest me i mean when i die i die that's it.


I totally agree. not worth reading. But if u die thats it? LOL. then why dont u just suicide?
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meurfather wrote:


iamzed wrote:

yeah this topic just doesn't interest me i mean when i die i die that's it.


I totally agree. not worth reading. But if u die thats it? LOL. then why dont u just suicide?


Why? Would promise of an immortal afterlife (say... you don't have to be "good" to be in "paradise") not make you kill yourself?
Do the words "This is your one and only life; the only one you're ever going to have." not want to make you live everyday the best you would want to spend it? If you think along your line of thought then I'd gather that if it were true, you wouldn't care to think about the situation of future generations that would continue after you die?
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This is by no means "proof" of theism as it is based on speculations and impossible scenarios. Furthermore, we would have absolutely no understanding of that theism even if it were proof, and we would go about our lives the same way. There is no reason to assume that divinity is that of Christianity, nor that it even cares about what we do or has any continuous bearing upon our existence. And it certainly wouldn't stop us from attempting to understand the universe as if there were no God, which yields useful answers even if a deity does exist.
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On a whole the EM theory sounds amusing, furthermore with the speculations added by CrashAriMP5N2O on his 3rd post makes it seem a lot more substantiated even if all of these are indeed speculations.
The only problem I had with the initial post was the way that he jumps in the end that:


even the workings of the universe itself could be host to some sort of universal consciousness!


The jump made was a far too big one at making a hypothesis that consciousness intertwined in a possibility of another being (in analysis, the same way two mirrors facing each other would reflect itself infinitely, the analysis just places itself in question of providing an infinite number of bigger consciousness in which exceptions would remain questionable.)


MidnightZorya wrote:

Now how will I call this new theory?


Your last name + ism. Have fun. Just make sure not to make it into a new "worship me" occult religion.
Posted 2/10/08

iamzed wrote:

yeah this topic just doesn't interest me i mean when i die i die that's it.


Only the fact that you actually clicked on the thread and did post your spamming in here means, that it somehow caught your attention, but you just lack the intellectual part to join into the discussion. Seriously, if it didn't interest you, then why the hell did you post in here/looking at it at all...*sigh*

Gabcom wrote:

Okay, that was a bit of a read, gonna have to give some time for that to sink in. But first some commentary.
The EM field theory is new to me, I haven't thought of it that way, with an EM field being related to consciousness, the processing factor of the mind. That's interesting, but what I find strange is our power of imagination, in comparison to the computer example, with its EM fields and processors. What part of our brains gives us the ability to think for ourselves, unlike machines and AI?
Eh my thoughts are a little unorganized, so I might have to clear this up later, if someone reads it.
Actually I've lost the plot completely. I'll come back after a few posts.

Oh, and Flo/MidnightZorya, your God theory sounds like some epic story lol, but since a while back, I haven't been able to stomach things about a God that seems to care a lot for us, with the Angels and all that.
However, from what I see, the God theory is almost as much speculation as the assumptions we make on this topic of our consciousness (or at least the deeper side of it).

Tired.


Lawl~
But seriously, my story would be a good excuse for God...^.~
And of course it is just hypothetical...or a speculation, since God is a being that can be speculated about, I enjoy myself with my thought up bullshit with which I came up while high...LAWL~


Deviance wrote:


MidnightZorya wrote:

Now how will I call this new theory?


Your last name + ism. Have fun. Just make sure not to make it into a new "worship me" occult religion.


Lawl~
People don't worship me!! Or I might get to be the most powerful God EVER!!! LAWL~ You know it ^.~
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