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Religion vs Science
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Posted 4/18/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Hawker wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote

'Should I show just How stupid that remark is? one can not exist without the other..
First lets look at education levels in the world.. you find a direct correlation with Lower education levels and how religious a country is.
Why do you think that is???
You also find that most Scientist are not religious. More than 85% of them at that. (do you see the correlation with science and religion here?) If I need to say more I can.
Science has been hampered by Christian Ideals for 1000's of years. Even Christians who discovered things using the science method had been silenced and their Ideals hidden away for more than 400 years. Yes Religion / the single god religion more than any other, had just about stop science to a snail crawl, So NO religion and science do not need each-other. Its other way around, Religion can not stand to science peer review, and Science will always be hampered by the religious, and the religion.


Being learned doesn't make a man more intelligent, it just makes him fool of a different caliber. Scientists and other scientific geniuses are experts in their fields, but they're complete idiots in other facets of their lives. Why does everyone assume that when someone is in a profession of academic noteworthy that they should be experts in other things? I know a physicist who has a genius grant from MacArthur Fellows, and he constantly mocks his own stupidity and those of his colleagues when it comes to doing other things. There is no correlation between level of education and intelligence, just look at the nuclear bomb.

Humans are religious by nature, not religious in the modern sense that they believe everything written in religious texts and observe all the customs of our respective religions, but in the ancient sense that we believe that our lives are governed by powers beyond our understanding and that we can appeal to those powers in our times of need. For example An important component of religion is shamanism, which disappeared from the West hundreds of years ago, before industrialization due to persecution by the Church, but now with the secularization of the West, the people have been reviving shamanistic practices in a movement called Technoshamanism.

Despite what you believe religion and science go hand in hand, scientific developments occur according to the needs of the culture, and to have culture we must first have cult. Societies were formed around religion, Western society was built on Christian beliefs. Christianity itself came from a mixture of Judaism and several Greek schools of thought, and one of these Greek schools was Platonism, who's founder Plato was heavily influenced by the Pythagoreans, a religious cult who believed that numbers were the key to the universe.

My advice to everyone here who thinks that religion and science don't need each other, need to open their eyes and see the world with a larger perspective, come out of your modern boxes and think outside of it. A candle can illuminate a thousand candles, but it's own light will not be diminished.

What you just said is udder bullshit. Now I agree about your little run off on history of where religion came from, and that people have a spiritual side *(not religious per say)*

It seems you are confusing spirituality for religion.

But if you do your home work you find it is not just education religion affects. Notice I said religion, not spirituality! (don't get them mixed up.) Because their is also a correlation with crime and religion as well. But lets not go their at this sec.

On another note you forgot to show how religion affects science in a good way.
I have shown that science and Ideals was silenced by the church. (but you fail to show How Science flourished do to religion. )

The truth is Religion is about agenda, and if the science does not fit that Agenda the science is silenced. Civilization evolves at the same pace that people education and understandings does.. And so If people are left in the dark civilization will not advance. or be slowed down to a crawl (dark ages) Wile if people are free to develop new things new ideas, and think out side of the religious box.. civilization advancements move at a much faster pace.


back to spirituality, we are a social animal who developed needs for bonds, we even seek bonds with the unknown this is where spirituality comes in. Religion is just a group who use spirituality to suet their own agendas.


I see that you failed to realize that I use the ancient sense of religion, in which it and spirituality were one in the same. I told you get out of that modern box.

The scientific community is just the same as the modern religious community in fighting and stomping out anything that challenges the established order. Scientists are often afraid to come out as religious or involve religion in their work because they're afraid of being ostracized and their careers being destroyed.

The greatest problem with religion is when it becomes monopolized in the hands of the clergy, the way it happened with Christianity. In the early days of Christianity, their were may sects each with their own unique beliefs, just like the ancient religions of old. But then came the Council of Nicea and Constantinople which declared their interpretations as supreme and absolute, and those who didn't believe it were heretics, and that includes the Arians and the Gnostic sects. Also their editing of the Bible was terrible, in their edit, they removed teachings that were dangerous and challenged the authority of the state and church, making sure that the teachings that taught obedience and servitude to those in power were not contradicted, but even then they messed that up.

You honestly believe that religion just popped out of nowhere? Religion came from repeated observations and a unique view of the world, something that's lost to industrialized nations.

You write with such arrogance, you speak of advancing so called "civilizations" , when has anything good come out of civilizations? Historically, civilizations were more destructive and cruel than the so called "barbarians" and "primitives" whom they loathed and hated.

And honestly, who gives a shit about science? How many people in the world do you think care about science? Not a lot, because it's nothing more than a hobby, most people cannot relate to it, the only ones who preach its virtues are scientists, science fans, and pseudo-intellectuals. Did you know that back in the 70's they predicted that with the continuous secularization of the industrialized world, religion would have disappeared from industrialized societies by the end of the millennium, and yet religion is still here and being revived.
When society collapses how many people are going to remember Einstein's Theory of Relativity or Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation? Not a lot, but they'll remember stories about the Garden of Eden, the Birth of the Buddha, how Tezcatlipoca, god of death, would remove his jade mask to reveal himself as Quetzelcoatl, god of peace. People will remember those stories, because that is what connects to them.
Posted 4/18/10 , edited 4/19/10

Hawker wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Hawker wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote

'Should I show just How stupid that remark is? one can not exist without the other..
First lets look at education levels in the world.. you find a direct correlation with Lower education levels and how religious a country is.
Why do you think that is???
You also find that most Scientist are not religious. More than 85% of them at that. (do you see the correlation with science and religion here?) If I need to say more I can.
Science has been hampered by Christian Ideals for 1000's of years. Even Christians who discovered things using the science method had been silenced and their Ideals hidden away for more than 400 years. Yes Religion / the single god religion more than any other, had just about stop science to a snail crawl, So NO religion and science do not need each-other. Its other way around, Religion can not stand to science peer review, and Science will always be hampered by the religious, and the religion.


Being learned doesn't make a man more intelligent, it just makes him fool of a different caliber. Scientists and other scientific geniuses are experts in their fields, but they're complete idiots in other facets of their lives. Why does everyone assume that when someone is in a profession of academic noteworthy that they should be experts in other things? I know a physicist who has a genius grant from MacArthur Fellows, and he constantly mocks his own stupidity and those of his colleagues when it comes to doing other things. There is no correlation between level of education and intelligence, just look at the nuclear bomb.

Humans are religious by nature, not religious in the modern sense that they believe everything written in religious texts and observe all the customs of our respective religions, but in the ancient sense that we believe that our lives are governed by powers beyond our understanding and that we can appeal to those powers in our times of need. For example An important component of religion is shamanism, which disappeared from the West hundreds of years ago, before industrialization due to persecution by the Church, but now with the secularization of the West, the people have been reviving shamanistic practices in a movement called Technoshamanism.

Despite what you believe religion and science go hand in hand, scientific developments occur according to the needs of the culture, and to have culture we must first have cult. Societies were formed around religion, Western society was built on Christian beliefs. Christianity itself came from a mixture of Judaism and several Greek schools of thought, and one of these Greek schools was Platonism, who's founder Plato was heavily influenced by the Pythagoreans, a religious cult who believed that numbers were the key to the universe.

My advice to everyone here who thinks that religion and science don't need each other, need to open their eyes and see the world with a larger perspective, come out of your modern boxes and think outside of it. A candle can illuminate a thousand candles, but it's own light will not be diminished.

What you just said is udder bullshit. Now I agree about your little run off on history of where religion came from, and that people have a spiritual side *(not religious per say)*

It seems you are confusing spirituality for religion.

But if you do your home work you find it is not just education religion affects. Notice I said religion, not spirituality! (don't get them mixed up.) Because their is also a correlation with crime and religion as well. But lets not go their at this sec.

On another note you forgot to show how religion affects science in a good way.
I have shown that science and Ideals was silenced by the church. (but you fail to show How Science flourished do to religion. )

The truth is Religion is about agenda, and if the science does not fit that Agenda the science is silenced. Civilization evolves at the same pace that people education and understandings does.. And so If people are left in the dark civilization will not advance. or be slowed down to a crawl (dark ages) Wile if people are free to develop new things new ideas, and think out side of the religious box.. civilization advancements move at a much faster pace.


back to spirituality, we are a social animal who developed needs for bonds, we even seek bonds with the unknown this is where spirituality comes in. Religion is just a group who use spirituality to suet their own agendas.


I see that you failed to realize that I use the ancient sense of religion, in which it and spirituality were one in the same. I told you get out of that modern box.

The scientific community is just the same as the modern religious community in fighting and stomping out anything that challenges the established order. Scientists are often afraid to come out as religious or involve religion in their work because they're afraid of being ostracized and their careers being destroyed.

The greatest problem with religion is when it becomes monopolized in the hands of the clergy, the way it happened with Christianity. In the early days of Christianity, their were may sects each with their own unique beliefs, just like the ancient religions of old. But then came the Council of Nicea and Constantinople which declared their interpretations as supreme and absolute, and those who didn't believe it were heretics, and that includes the Arians and the Gnostic sects. Also their editing of the Bible was terrible, in their edit, they removed teachings that were dangerous and challenged the authority of the state and church, making sure that the teachings that taught obedience and servitude to those in power were not contradicted, but even then they messed that up.

You honestly believe that religion just popped out of nowhere? Religion came from repeated observations and a unique view of the world, something that's lost to industrialized nations.

You write with such arrogance, you speak of advancing so called "civilizations" , when has anything good come out of civilizations? Historically, civilizations were more destructive and cruel than the so called "barbarians" and "primitives" whom they loathed and hated.

And honestly, who gives a shit about science? How many people in the world do you think care about science? Not a lot, because it's nothing more than a hobby, most people cannot relate to it, the only ones who preach its virtues are scientists, science fans, and pseudo-intellectuals.
Did you know that back in the 70's they predicted that with the continuous secularization of the industrialized world, religion would have disappeared from industrialized societies by the end of the millennium, and yet religion is still here and being revived.

When society collapses how many people are going to remember Einstein's Theory of Relativity or Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation? Not a lot, but they'll remember stories about the Garden of Eden, the Birth of the Buddha, how Tezcatlipoca, god of death, would remove his jade mask to reveal himself as Quetzelcoatl, god of peace. People will remember those stories, because that is what connects to them.

Well can they manage to do all of that spreading and reviving alone? As in without them relying on the power of technology created by science, which accelerated the spreading and multiplying of memes at a rate that would otherwise impossible for them.

Science nerds and geeks do have a shared interest and hobby in science, but they're also naturally less depressed and most definitely not suicidal. So while the more recently established science do tell far less imaginative stories, relatively compared to the far longer history of religions, the nerds and geeks can still "live long and prosper" on their own. Without them relying on religious, mythical, or any other supernatural fictions for inspirations. When the reality should be the other way around; all these fictional stories are created by human imagination for our inspiration and amusement.

Otherwise, how would you explain that aside from real natural disasters, we humans are still our own worst enemy? When since the dawn of human civilization, the myth of malevolence is progressively on a steady decline. While human population is still increasing, infant mortality rate is decreasing, the human's life expediency is longer than ever, and for the first time ever half of the world human population is living in civilized urban settlements.

Therefore I think scientists aren't afraid of religions, when the fact is that they just don't need them. Because they're getting rather fed up with the same old stories that's taking up bandwidths, while they had to think about compressing their research data so that more Twilight fanfictions can be spread on the internet faster that religions.
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Posted 4/19/10

Hawker wrote:
I see that you failed to realize that I use the ancient sense of religion, in which it and spirituality were one in the same. I told you get out of that modern box.


We're living in the 21st century, discussing here the affairs of religion and science in a 21st century sense. We could go and choose from a wide array of meanings, but there is no reason when the ones dispelling confusion best are readily available?


Hawker wrote:The scientific community is just the same as the modern religious community in fighting and stomping out anything that challenges the established order. Scientists are often afraid to come out as religious or involve religion in their work because they're afraid of being ostracized and their careers being destroyed.


It is harsh, but that's scrutiny for you. In John Milton's words 'Let all with something to say be free to express themselves. The true and sound will survive. The false and unsound will be vanquished.' It is through and from ruthless debates that the truth surfaces and rest assured, those working in the field of science will defer if proven wrong, unless a counter-argument is available which is grounded in truth.


Hawker wrote:The greatest problem with religion is when it becomes monopolized in the hands of the clergy, the way it happened with Christianity. In the early days of Christianity, their were may sects each with their own unique beliefs, just like the ancient religions of old. But then came the Council of Nicea and Constantinople which declared their interpretations as supreme and absolute, and those who didn't believe it were heretics, and that includes the Arians and the Gnostic sects. Also their editing of the Bible was terrible, in their edit, they removed teachings that were dangerous and challenged the authority of the state and church, making sure that the teachings that taught obedience and servitude to those in power were not contradicted, but even then they messed that up.


Religion establishes it's authority to declare actions desirable or undesirable and people take it upon themselves to act in accord with the teachings of a specific religion. Religion, then, places the authority of interpreting said teachings in the hands of a select class of clergymen or however you wish to call them. The masses want to know what to do, what's right, how to act in this seemingly uncaring and cold universe, and the clergy have the answers, oh yes, a lot of answers. This is how religion has been in the past. So long as men serve as spiritual leaders, there will be dishonesty, corruption and so on and so forth. Expect no less of our species. We're cunning, ruthless survivors and survival and honesty rarely go hand-in-hand.


Hawker wrote:You honestly believe that religion just popped out of nowhere? Religion came from repeated observations and a unique view of the world, something that's lost to industrialized nations.


Religion came from repeated observations and misinterpretations. It's unique the same way as a novel is unique.


Hawker wrote:You write with such arrogance, you speak of advancing so called "civilizations" , when has anything good come out of civilizations? Historically, civilizations were more destructive and cruel than the so called "barbarians" and "primitives" whom they loathed and hated.


Feel free to opt out. No healthcare, no police to protect you, no system to get your daily 'bread' to you, to shelter you, to protect your interests against other countries. None of this, but you will have wooden sticks with which you may drive away the evil spirits of illness and famine.


Hawker wrote:And honestly, who gives a shit about science? How many people in the world do you think care about science? Not a lot, because it's nothing more than a hobby, most people cannot relate to it, the only ones who preach its virtues are scientists, science fans, and pseudo-intellectuals. Did you know that back in the 70's they predicted that with the continuous secularization of the industrialized world, religion would have disappeared from industrialized societies by the end of the millennium, and yet religion is still here and being revived.
When society collapses how many people are going to remember Einstein's Theory of Relativity or Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation? Not a lot, but they'll remember stories about the Garden of Eden, the Birth of the Buddha, how Tezcatlipoca, god of death, would remove his jade mask to reveal himself as Quetzelcoatl, god of peace. People will remember those stories, because that is what connects to them.


When and if science assumes the role it should rightfully have, the average person will not remember Einstein's or Newton's theories, and she won't remember Quetzalcoatl either, but she will know that she derives her comfort, health, security and peace from science, not from Quetzalcoatl. As for academics, they will remember Einstein and Newton, their contributions, the foundation they created for further progression for the betterment of our standards, to improve our species, to radically alter the human condition, change it from 30 years of survival in filth, ridden by parasites, frail from diseases to something entirely different in so far as our interpretation of it is concerned. You go dance around a fire with your tales of Buddha and Quetzalcoatl, I will avait the legalisation of stem cell research, cloning, genetic engineering, the spread of nano-technology, the readjustment of the Hadron Collider's magnets and so on and so forth.
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Posted 4/19/10 , edited 4/19/10
personally i think that religion is only necessary in the early beginnings of a civilization. it encourages thoughts beyond our view of the physical world around them and trys to rationalize it/ understand it. After sometime however, when science and government pick up, religion should fade, not completely though, it has its purpose but it loses most of its importance.

the majority of the convinence we have today is thank to the many areas of science. sure things like nukes, guns, and stuff r products of science but only if its abused for such purposes, religion cant say its free from atrocities like the dark age, inquisition, and crusades but they have done wonders too.

bottom line science i think holds the best promise for a better world its human nature im afraid of
Posted 4/20/10 , edited 4/20/10

uhohimdead wrote:

personally i think that religion is only necessary in the early beginnings of a civilization. it encourages thoughts beyond our view of the physical world around them and trys to rationalize it/ understand it. After sometime however, when science and government pick up, religion should fade, not completely though, it has its purpose but it loses most of its importance.

the majority of the convinence we have today is thank to the many areas of science. sure things like nukes, guns, and stuff r products of science but only if its abused for such purposes, religion cant say its free from atrocities like the dark age, inquisition, and crusades but they have done wonders too.

bottom line science i think holds the best promise for a better world its human nature im afraid of
I personally think that the nature of humanity isn't bad, it just needs a lot of work. That's all.

However, when there are others who oppose me due to a different opinion on humanity. I can see far more unnecessary resistance caused by some individuals' unrealistic expectation of the nature of humanity. It is therefore my intention that you're not one of those individuals.
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Posted 4/20/10

DomFortress wrote:
I personally think that the nature of humanity isn't bad, it just needs a lot of work. That's all.

However, when there are others who oppose me due to a different opinion on humanity. I can see far more unnecessary resistance caused by some individuals' unrealistic expectation of the nature of humanity. It is therefore my intention that you're not one of those individuals.


i never said it was bad its just what that nature is capable of however i do hope the it will get better
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Posted 4/20/10
I think this is turning into a debate not strictly about religion and science, but the roles they should fulfil. Well, science can have a role, since it is a tool. It has utility, while religion does not. Firstly, unless it is established that any given religion is right, it can, for all practical purposes, be considered a web of lies. Unless and until it is proven that any given sect is true in holding the beliefs they hold, there is no need for religion, as whatever beneficial things said religion may be or may have been doing, can be done by secular alternatives.
Posted 4/20/10 , edited 4/20/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

I think this is turning into a debate not strictly about religion and science, but the roles they should fulfill. Well, science can have a role, since it is a tool. It has utility, while religion does not. Firstly, unless it is established that any given religion is right, it can, for all practical purposes, be considered a web of lies. Unless and until it is proven that any given sect is true in holding the beliefs they hold, there is no need for religion, as whatever beneficial things said religion may be or may have been doing, can be done by secular alternatives.
Personally, I find that the monolithic religious standard and value on the nature of humanity are mostly if not always negative without proofs, while any sort of humanitarian acts became a sense of obligation instead of just a part of human nature. When the fact is that while there are those with evil intends hiding among their ranks, and people can naturally express the positive feelings such as love and compassion; you can say that natural science is how scientists romancing about nature, while individuals in the religious sects aren't always came with good/true/honest intentions.

However, throughout the history of human civilization both religions and science had been hijacked by negative human motives for bad things. From slavery, rape, torture, raid, murder, war, and now even capitalism IMO. The difference of the two is that while one is a means to an end -doing this and that to so and so in the name of almighty- , the other is a process of just cause; doing it for the hell of it.

Therefore as you can see, it all comes down to how the nature of humanity is being defined by these tools. But when religions already had a negative annotation about the state of humanity as it is, science OTOH had been making good progress at identifying positive aspects of humanity, with evolutionary psychology, neurophysiology, and cognitive science reverse engineering the process of human mind.
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Posted 4/20/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

It is harsh, but that's scrutiny for you. In John Milton's words 'Let all with something to say be free to express themselves. The true and sound will survive. The false and unsound will be vanquished.' It is through and from ruthless debates that the truth surfaces and rest assured, those working in the field of science will defer if proven wrong, unless a counter-argument is available which is grounded in truth.


The truth is subjective, but I won't got further into the the philosophical nature of the idea.


DerfelCadarn
Religion establishes it's authority to declare actions desirable or undesirable and people take it upon themselves to act in accord with the teachings of a specific religion. Religion, then, places the authority of interpreting said teachings in the hands of a select class of clergymen or however you wish to call them. The masses want to know what to do, what's right, how to act in this seemingly uncaring and cold universe, and the clergy have the answers, oh yes, a lot of answers. This is how religion has been in the past. So long as men serve as spiritual leaders, there will be dishonesty, corruption and so on and so forth. Expect no less of our species. We're cunning, ruthless survivors and survival and honesty rarely go hand-in-hand.


The greatest weakness to any movement or revolution is one long word, PEOPLE.


DerfelCadarn
Feel free to opt out. No healthcare, no police to protect you, no system to get your daily 'bread' to you, to shelter you, to protect your interests against other countries. None of this, but you will have wooden sticks with which you may drive away the evil spirits of illness and famine.

When and if science assumes the role it should rightfully have, the average person will not remember Einstein's or Newton's theories, and she won't remember Quetzalcoatl either, but she will know that she derives her comfort, health, security and peace from science, not from Quetzalcoatl. As for academics, they will remember Einstein and Newton, their contributions, the foundation they created for further progression for the betterment of our standards, to improve our species, to radically alter the human condition, change it from 30 years of survival in filth, ridden by parasites, frail from diseases to something entirely different in so far as our interpretation of it is concerned. You go dance around a fire with your tales of Buddha and Quetzalcoatl, I will avait the legalisation of stem cell research, cloning, genetic engineering, the spread of nano-technology, the readjustment of the Hadron Collider's magnets and so on and so forth.


All modern conveniences that we ultimately don't need. Our species has survived for thousands of years without cars, cell phones, modern plumbing, police force, etc. And yet modern man becomes hysterical when one of these 'essentials' are removed from his life. I look around and talk to people, and I find that most people particularly teenagers and those in their early to mid 20's, don't know how to start a fire, cook, hand wash clothing, hunt, etc. Skills that are truly essential for survival. I have honestly only met one teenager who doesn't rely microwaves and take outs to survive when their parents are away for vacation or business.

And where has all our success brought us? A society that is rampant with crime, mental illnesses, suicides, self-destructive individualism, ethnic tensions, nihilism, depravity, hedonism, etc. In trying to create a better and safer society, we have created a world that is less safe for all of us. Religion provided the counterbalance to materialism, a realm that science dwells in.

If you look at religious and holy texts throughout history, they all lamented mans abandonment of the natural world, their drive to create urban sprawls and their descent into materialism. A perfect example would be the story of Adam and Eve, with the power of Knowledge man begins to reject the natural and spiritual world, we were not cast out of the Garden but abandoned it.The story of Cain and Abel, a story of Mesopotamian origin, represents the conflict between hunter gatherers and farmers. The Epic of Gilgamesh expresses the anguish of the of the new urban individual.

As for the issue of death, ancient man didn't have the hysterical fear of death the way modern man does. The only ones obsessed with immortality and long life were the monarchs, nobles, and the upper class, people who lived in relative comfort and luxury, comparable to how the average man in a modern industrialized nation would live. For the rest of the population, it was a necessary end and it was a reality they accepted, in some cultures they embraced and celebrated it.


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digs 
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Posted 4/21/10
I think science and religion must co-exist. Science is the understanding of God's creation. Religion is the understanding of God and things beyond science and what we can empirically know and observe. Science cannot take the place of religion nor can it explain the supernatural. Science's role should be to understand and explore God's creation.
Posted 4/21/10 , edited 4/21/10

digs wrote:

I think science and religion must co-exist. Science is the understanding of God's creation. Religion is the understanding of God and things beyond science and what we can empirically know and observe. Science cannot take the place of religion nor can it explain the supernatural. Science's role should be to understand and explore God's creation.
When science can explain just how irrational and irresponsible those who claimed to be of "God's creation". And why are they like that is due to their self-pity of pleasure seeking. Then what?

And remember that by you playing the "blissful ignorance" card, you just invited yourself for even more self-pity.
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Posted 4/21/10
Id say science is good to understan and religion completes our souls. Anyways, everything in excess is bad. We need BALANCE
Posted 4/21/10

Bori-kun wrote:

Id say science is good to understand and religion completes our souls. Anyways, everything in excess is bad. We need BALANCE :)
So what balance can religion brings to our souls?
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Posted 4/21/10
We may feel complete and happy in the inside and obviously if ur a believer of your religion and happy with it well then its perfect. what i meant by balance was actually like dont be a fanatic of your religion and over do things.
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Posted 5/11/10
the only problem with science is the possibility and mentality to destroy and disprove a concept. This brings uncertainty whether it should be taken as major principle of life, something that cannot enjoyed by most people. But hell, it's fun XDXDXD
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