Created by Blacksmithrage5
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Skyrim: Imperials or Stormcloaks?
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Posted 3/26/16 , edited 3/26/16

Somewhat_Insane_Monkey wrote:

I went Stormcloaks, the racist thing can be fixed over time I think there would also be points if you were a different race. As for the empire I think the banning of the worship of Talos could be made a permanent thing if the Thalmor stayed in power and even if they weren't in power judging how most of the people felt about Talos they probably wouldn't have removed the ban. Talos is in fact a god from the lore I read so I'd rather be in good graces with him rather than receive some sort divine punishment.

Edit: Plus the Thalmor are bigger Bigots than the Nords. So if the Empire won and the Thalmor were still in control you would get both racism and be told who you are aloud and not aloud to worship.

Plus the main grievance of the stormcloaks is that the land that they once ruled was seized from them. Just as native Indians hated early Americans (and some still do to this day lol).

Or, if some other invader took over your country and started imposing new laws that clearly favored the invaders, and took away the freedoms that you've known your entire life, how would you feel? They can't even worship their own god without fear of persecution. And there are many books, subquests, and events that show you just how scary it was to practice talos belief. Even other Nords would ostracize you once you were caught, for fear that they would also receive punishment.
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Posted 3/27/16

Ranwolf wrote:

And where exactly do you get the notion the Imperial Army or the people of Tamriel are at all war weary. None of the Imperial soldiers you encounter in Skyrim even hint at such a thing . Even General Tullius himself shows a distrust of the Thalmor and an outright dislike of the White-Gold Concordat . Furthermore he hints that the next enemy to be taken care of is the Thalmor if you settle the civil war in favour of the Empire.

So I fail to see how anyone could think the Imperial Army is at all war weary.

I don't think that either. I mean the general populations of the various provinces other than Hammerfell and Skyrim may be war weary (certainly some people in Skyrim are at least), which is who the Stormcloaks would have to instill a fighting spirit in since the Imperial Army would be off the table as allies for a short time at best.

And as for Hammerfall success against the Thalmor you have to remember the Thalmor are themselves still rebuilding and stretched thin. And with Cyrodiil , Hammerfall, and Skyrim to manage they can't commit enough resources in any one place to ensure a successful campaign against Hammerfall.

The Empire was founded by a Nord true but the Nord people have never made up the bulk of the Imperial Army . So the Stormcloaks are both short sighted and incapable of even basic strategic thinking . The Thalmor are high elves with a 1000 year life span so they can think in the long term. And furthermore a lot of the Thalmor whatever you think of them have centuries of experience in warfare and strategy. You don't bull rush an enemy like that regardless of whatever recent past means to you.

That's just it, though: the Dominion's forces have suffered massive casualties just like the Empire and are spread out across so much land at once that it's difficult for a relatively small cabal like the Thalmor to manage them with full efficiency. That's why the Dominion government agreed to turn to diplomacy, because that's the only place where the Thalmor still held a distinct advantage at that point and they were presented with an opportunity to make enormous gains via diplomacy that they simply couldn't have made by force. In fact, given the results in Hammerfell, the Imperial City, and Skyrim (if you side with Ulfric) there's reason to believe the Dominion actually looked to withstand losses if the fighting had continued. It made total sense from the Dominion's perspective to come to the negotiating table. Not so much for the Empire, particularly considering what they walked away having signed.

Think about what the White Gold Concordate actually does from a legal and political standpoint: it strips the Imperial monarch of their divine right to rule by officially removing Talos from the list of divines. Since the Empire is a monarchy whose government is founded upon the monarch's divine right to rule as a descendant of Talos that means the compact officially undermines the legitimacy of the entire Imperial government. The compact also empowers the Dominion to bring its forces into Imperial territory for the sake of enforcing law, and we see that this is enforced with the observation that Thalmor inquisitors and Dominion soldiers walk the roads and bark orders at the jarls of Skyrim. This means the Imperial government gave up its monopoly on the use of force within its borders. Its military, council of elders, and even the emperor no longer have sole executive authority. The technical outcome of the White Gold Concordate was that the Empire ceased to exist as a sovereign state.

Imagine if US political figures walked the halls of the Centre Block and told members of Canada's parliament how things were going to go in Canada, and the Canadian government's answer amounted to weakly whimpering "Yes, sir." Imagine their signing an agreement denouncing the legitimacy of the Canadian monarch and denouncing the Canadian peoples' authority to elect people to parliament. Imagine US soldiers marching the streets of Ontario and telling its municipal leaders what they may and may not do.

That's what happened when the Empire signed the White Gold Concordate.

The path of immediate action only works when you have the kind of resources to maintain an extended and prolonged campaign. Which Skyrim does not have, nor has ever had really.

Right, exactly. No disagreement about that here. Those are exactly the risks I noted for the Stormcloaks' side: Skyrim is relatively isolated and short of resources to destroy the Dominion on its own. A Stormcloak approach relies on the assumption that the general population of Tamriel either isn't actually as war weary as I suspect they may be, could be convinced that victory is closer than they assume and so to endure their weariness a bit longer for the sake of the Dominion's defeat, or that they could smack the Dominion so hard that the Empire would see its moment and join the attack. The Stormcloak approach isn't a safe bet, but there are no safe bets. The player is presented with a choice between two crap sandwiches, not a crap sandwich or a tuna on rye.
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Posted 3/27/16 , edited 3/27/16

BlueOni wrote:

Problem is yes the Thalmor are only a small fraction of the Dominion as a whole but like any good ruling elite the Thalmor aren't without their basic knowledge of how to manipulate those underneath them. And if I may use a real life example here history has shown us time and time again the aggressors (i.e the party to initiate the offensive ) tend to be viewed with ill intent. And the defenders will usually unite against them even if they have their issues with current leadership. The Domain may be as exhausted as the Empire but unlike the current Empire they are a still united whole and the undeniable victors of the last war. So a Stormcloak lead offensive against them would like just reaffirm the Dominion's flagging elements behind the Thalmor's leadership. After all people have always fought hardest for the soil they are born on after all. We see plenty examples of that in our own history. So instead of a Dominion divided between it's war weariness and the prodding of the Thalmor we would have the victors of the last war ready to fight another .

As for the White-Gold Concordat it is far more complex than a simple issue of a loss of sovereignty. All of Tamriel was once a united whole and was so until quite recently. So it's people see little sense as a whole in being at loggerheads with each other. Not to mention we as the player are totally unaware of the Empire's larger goals. Plenty of nations in our own history have won long term victory by letting themselves suffer short term defeats and even trading territory and rights. Furthermore the only official power the Thalmor have within Imperial borders is the right to enforce the banning of Talos worship. As for the divine right of the Emperor of Tamriel, the current Emperor is not a descendant of Talos. Martin Septim was the last and he died childless in Oblivion remember.
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Posted 3/27/16
Stormcloaks. Skyrim belongs to the Nords!
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 12/31/17
End of the year clean up ^,^ Closing threads from 2016
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