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Outage In Stardew Valley Over Using Mods To Alter Race
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Hoosierville
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Posted 3/30/16

megahobbit wrote:


cdarklock wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

I mean theres something a bit iffy about whitewashing a character in the fan material. Kinda reflects badly on the modder.


I honestly don't see why it reflects any worse on the modder than making a mod for a Batman game to give him a red Batmobile.

I can see why people might THINK worse things of him. You might think that by altering Maru's skin colour, he is trying to erase the existence of black or mixed-race people in the game. But that is YOU making up in your head what you THINK the modder was making up in HIS head. And you can't blame someone else for something you made up in your head.

Now, you could ASK him what he was thinking when he made this, but the answer is probably every bit as racist as 'I wanted my Batmobile to be red." What makes the Batmobile, you know, the Batmobile... isn't what colour it is. The colour is just a trivial external detail and a matter of taste. What the modder probably wants is someone with Maru's personality and hairstyle and manner of dress, but with a slightly different skin colour - a trivial external detail, a matter of taste.

When you ignore her personality, her hairstyle, her manner of dress, and reduce her instead to "the only non-white option?"

THAT seems racist. THAT seems like you're saying "skin colour is the most important part of this character."

But that's not what you're saying. What you're saying is that you don't believe the modder sees skin as a trivial external detail. You believe he sees it as the most important part of the character.

Except... why do you think that? Why is it so hard to believe that the modder doesn't think skin colour is a big deal?

The answer is in YOUR head. I don't know what it is, but it reflects a lot more on you than it does on the modder.


False equivalence the post.


What the fuck are you saying? Did you brain just go full potato?
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22 / M / England
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Posted 3/30/16 , edited 3/30/16
The mod that turns dragons in to Thomas the Tank Engine trains in Skyrim is offensive to dragon otherkin, and should promptly be removed from the internet.
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Posted 3/30/16
So creating your and moderating your game character how you want them is racist now? Hmm... glad I left the gaming world long ago if I'm no longer allowed to be white
Posted 3/30/16 , edited 3/30/16
It never ceases to amaze the amount of dumb sh*t people get mad about. It's their copy of the game and it's single player.

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31 / M
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Posted 3/31/16
Maybe we can use this as an opportunity to discuss why some people feel they need to marry a white woman and whether it's nurture or nature that has made some people feel this way and if there are deep issues within our society that needs to be aired out and examined in detail to see if, maybe, we still hold on to outdated notions about skin color. Instead of getting really pissed off one way or the other.

Or we can stand on either side and sling shit at each other and accomplish nothing. Like we always do on the Internet. Yup, let's go with that one.
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47 / M / Auburn, Washington
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Posted 3/31/16

ThatSwedishGuy wrote:

Maybe we can use this as an opportunity to discuss why some people feel they need to marry a white woman and whether it's nurture or nature that has made some people feel this way


But there's an additional distinction we have to make here.

Stardew Valley is a game.

When you get married in Stardew Valley, you are not actually marrying a real person with any real impact on the world. You are simply stating a relationship between two pieces of data. "The character record in this save file has a marriage-property equal to Maru." Which, in real-world terms, is "Player.Spouse = 12" or whatever.

Meanwhile, there's a data record with ID 12 in a file somewhere, and it says "this.Sprite = image12.png" and it doesn't actually know or care what that image actually is. It might be a pigeon. It might be a car. It is just the image that gets put on screen when the game wants to show a picture of record 12.

If we replace that file with a picture of a pigeon, since we do live in a world where Hatoful Boyfriend is a thing that exists, does this make some kind of statement about bestiality?

If we replace it with a picture of a '57 Chevy, a thing on which some people have been known to get off, does that make some kind of statement about object sexuality?

What we have here is a group of people who are upset because they don't like the image someone used to replace an image provided in the game. They're not objecting because they don't like the image - Abigail has very white skin in the game, so clearly people in the game are ALLOWED to be white - but because they think the person replacing it is THINKING something they don't like.

They're objecting because they have made up in their heads that someone else made something up in his head that they don't like.

In short, "your crime is that I think you thought something bad."

THIS IS INSANE.

And what frightens me about this is that nobody seems to UNDERSTAND it's insane. When Bob eats some bacon, and then John says "Bob ate that bacon to make a clandestine political statement that Islam, in which the eating of pork is forbidden, needs to be eliminated from the planet by wholesale genocide" - it is somehow difficult to explain WHY John's statement is just flat-out crazy.

It's no less crazy to say "replacing the image is the same as replacing the person." This type of synecdoche simply doesn't extend to the real world, and besides, we replace people in the real world ALL THE TIME. We stop hanging out with friends. We break up with lovers. We quit jobs and get new ones. We move to new cities and do all three at once.

You can't complain that someone ELSE is a racist because they fell in love with someone, or made friends with someone, or got a job from someone, that YOU wish was a different race.
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Posted 3/31/16
Its just a mod?... and this is the internet?... -__-

megahobbit wrote:
I mean theres something a bit iffy about whitewashing a character in the fan material. Kinda reflects badly on the modder.
no.. but if there was something that put something bad in it or something else then yes it could.

and this could also be a matter of taste.. why should you not allow them having their tastes even if the other side don't have don't mean the others can't have it as well.

if it was the devs of the game you could start to be curious but like this.. go somewhere else about that.

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Posted 3/31/16

cdarklock wrote:


ThatSwedishGuy wrote:

Maybe we can use this as an opportunity to discuss why some people feel they need to marry a white woman and whether it's nurture or nature that has made some people feel this way


But there's an additional distinction we have to make here.

Stardew Valley is a game.


Okay, wait. There is no additional distinction to be made. Games do not exist in a vacuum no matter how much some people might want them to. This is why discussions like these are so important and why we must have them. Not to shame (though a lot of people certainly do that) but to lay it all out and ask people to reconsider things such as culture, tradition and many other aspects. What drove a person to feel so strongly about skin color that they actually went and modded the game just to create something more pleasing to them? If it's just a game, like you say, then the color of a pixel character shouldn't matter, it's just a game. But clearly it did matter to someone ENOUGH that he went and did something about it. Why? Was it a whim? Could he simply not stand the thought of marrying someone with a different skin color? What chain of thought lead to him actually making the effort?

I don't know how easy or hard it is to mod Stardew Valley but the point remains: someone did it, why? Racism? Subconscious racism? Skewed beauty ideals? A thing s/he did because s/he had the time and it was easy? Was it practice for modding something bigger? None or a combination?

It doesn't just say something about the game, the people who made the game, the person who modded the game, the people who downloaded the mod, the people who took offense at the mod, the people who took offense at the taking of offense and so on. It says something about society because all of us, regardless how much some might dislike it, are a result of societal norms and ideas and concepts. So every decision we make is a reflection of not just ourselves but the society that influenced our way of thinking and life.

Like I said, it'd be nice if everybody just calmed down and we could have an actual discussion that might lead to something productive instead of people yelling from opposite ends of a room, flinging and dodging shit and accusing the other side of flinging more shit. It's tedious and it's tiresome and it's why discussions like this never occur online and why university and companies and similar have taken these discussions elsewhere or behind closed doors.
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47 / M / Auburn, Washington
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Posted 3/31/16

ThatSwedishGuy wrote:

Okay, wait. There is no additional distinction to be made. Games do not exist in a vacuum


I am not saying games exist in a vacuum.

I am saying Maru is NOT a person.

When we make Maru "more white," we are not making a PERSON "more white." We are simply painting a thing. Maru is just data. The image of Maru is just data. The notion that this data represents a given race is a FICTION.

This is a relatively important distinction.

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Posted 3/31/16 , edited 3/31/16

ThatSwedishGuy wrote:
I don't know how easy or hard it is to mod Stardew Valley but the point remains: someone did it, why? Racism? Subconscious racism? Skewed beauty ideals? A thing s/he did because s/he had the time and it was easy? Was it practice for modding something bigger? None or a combination?
nice thing your name is "ThatSwedishGuy"... -__-....
skewed beauty ideals?.. just look at asian women from the past that made it more worth or more of an "beauty" like plastic surgery today for some people.
Not that has to be something about race or racism.

again you are taking the modders goal or what they created as something bad.. unless the creator did mean it for something bad.
still like I said people got their tastes... and when it comes to games every color can be more wanted or not (for example skyrim wanting more green or weird looking creatures/charaters) while here it could be possible many liked it more white or that it would fit more with the theme/world/systems.. so is it their fault now?

but then again didn't really see what the mod does.

sargon - The Conspiracy to Murder LGBT Characters is Real!
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47 / M / Auburn, Washington
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Posted 3/31/16

Freddy96NO wrote:

nice thing your name is "ThatSwedishGuy"... -__-....


^ That right there is the problem.

You are inventing in your head a reason why ThatSwedishGuy chose this as his name.

That reason, in turn, was something he invented in his head. He's the only one who knows it. If you want to know it, you have to ask him, and he doesn't have to tell you. He might even lie.

Humanity, as a general rule, has two related systematic flaws in thinking.

The first is that we THINK we know more about what OTHER people are thinking than we really do.

Similarly, we think OTHER people know LESS about our thinking than they really do.

The truth is somewhere between those. It's likely that you ACTUALLY know more about ThatSwedishGuy's thought process than he thinks you do, but you THINK you know more about it than you actually do.

Chances are pretty good ThatSwedishGuy has selected this as his name because he lives or has lived in Sweden. You might proceed to extrapolate from this that you understand how he thinks and what he is thinking because you understand the Swedish people, but even the notion that he's lived in Sweden is just something we're guessing at.

And you can't base your argument on something you made up in your head. You may be able to say that the Swedish people have specific beauty ideals, but you cannot then say that everyone who says they are Swedish has those same ideals. This is not rational.
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31 / M
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Posted 4/1/16 , edited 4/1/16

cdarklock wrote:
I am not saying games exist in a vacuum.

I am saying Maru is NOT a person.

When we make Maru "more white," we are not making a PERSON "more white." We are simply painting a thing. Maru is just data. The image of Maru is just data. The notion that this data represents a given race is a FICTION.

This is a relatively important distinction.


In a perfect world, yes, I agree. I already sort of agree, there's nothing more or less wrong with any shade of melanin and one can choose freely. But we're still struggling with racism today no matter how much we'd like to think otherwise and therefor discussions like these are important to have. No other medium allows us to have this discussion better than games and shutting these discussions down benefits no-one in the end.

For the record, I don't particularly agree with anyone. Personally I'd never use the mod and like I said, I'm curious why some people feel it's a worthwhile mod and having a discussion about that. But that's it, really, it's just the extreme reactions either way that get under my skin.


Freddy96NO wrote:


ThatSwedishGuy wrote:
I don't know how easy or hard it is to mod Stardew Valley but the point remains: someone did it, why? Racism? Subconscious racism? Skewed beauty ideals? A thing s/he did because s/he had the time and it was easy? Was it practice for modding something bigger? None or a combination?

nice thing your name is "ThatSwedishGuy"... -__-....
skewed beauty ideals?.. just look at asian women from the past that made it more worth or more of an "beauty" like plastic surgery today for some people.
Not that has to be something about race or racism.

again you are taking the modders goal or what they created as something bad.. unless the creator did mean it for something bad.
still like I said people got their tastes... and when it comes to games every color can be more wanted or not (for example skyrim wanting more green or weird looking creatures/charaters) while here it could be possible many liked it more white or that it would fit more with the theme/world/systems.. so is it their fault now?

but then again didn't really see what the mod does.


Yes, it is a nice name, isn't it? And there is no greater mystery behind it than... I am from Sweden. Ta-da! For the record, yes, I am a socialist and yes, I am a feminist, I am also highly anti-racist (very tough to be that in Sweden right now) not to mention blond and blue eyed but sadly not a body as if chiseled from Adonis.

That said, I'm just going to kind of assume you didn't understand my reasoning. If you did, sorry, but your English suggest it's not you're native language and/or that you struggle with it. So let me be perfectly clear: you got me wrong. I didn't SAY it was skewed beauty ideals nor did I suggest it was racism that was behind it. What I did say was that I wanted to discuss what his/her reasoning COULD have been and the ones mentioned were simply examples, including two that were anything but negative and an option of "none of the above". My interest is less in the individual in this case but rather the society that his choices potentially reflect.

In the case of skewed beauty ideals, is it possible we over represent white women in ad campaigns and the like? Why do we do this? Is it because this is what people want or is it because of old norms and traditions that are possibly very outdated. And if it is, what can we do to change our perception of beauty?

But no, someone took offense at something then someone took offense at the taking of offense and then someone took offense at the people taking offense at the people taking offense and so the blame train continues until it runs out of fuel in the middle of nowhere and everyone goes home hungry.

Edit: The typo in the thread title still amuse me greatly.
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Posted 4/1/16
I modded my game so I could MILF Jodi. Fight me.
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Posted 4/1/16

-Jinto- wrote:

I modded my game so I could MILF Jodi. Fight me.


CHOOSE YOUR WEAPON!!!
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MOD ALERT
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