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Post Reply North Korea Tells Citizens to Prepare Themselves for Famine
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Posted 4/1/16 , edited 4/1/16

outontheop wrote:


Ranwolf wrote:

You know to be fair a lot of their current economic trouble does stem from trade embargoes we of the west imposed on them . If any nation these days had even half that kinda of crap imposed on them they'd be suffering the same issues. That includes you Americans you know, no nation these days is a island so to speak. No nation is capable of supporting itself.


You know, to be fair, what you just said is absolute BS. The US is capable of producing quite a bit more food and other necessities than it needs to feed its people. If completely embargoed, the US would suffer primarily from a lack of luxury goods, and (eventually) a shortage of heavy machinery.

North Korea's problem is that they have not only provoked embargoes against themselves by refusing to submit to international law, they have also mismanaged their economy terribly, using their limited heavy industry to buy ever more weaponry to waggle at the international community, while completely neglecting to pay for infrastructure or, you know, *farm equipment*.

Saying that the west "caused" their famines is morale equivalency on the order of claiming that the empire of Japan was "forced" to invade the entire west Pacific because the "evil Americans" embargoed their oil supplies.

....which the US only did because the Japanese had broken international law, invaded China, and were committing mass atrocities targeting Chinese civilians. Yes, yes, it was so terrible of the US to embargo them

*epic eyeroll*


Mate take a look at the GDP of the USA and see how much of it is wholly dependent on the export of goods. Now take that massive chunk of your national budget out of the equation. And let's not even get started on how utterly dependant the US is on foreign oil importation. Mainly due to how large and mechanized your military is. The US also produces nowhere near the amount of food and other natural resources it's citizens consume on a daily basis. Perhaps with some restructuring, a complete disarmament, and turning every square centimeter of arable land towards the production of food the US might at a stretch maintain a barter level economy. And that is if the current population learns to live on a quarter of the resources they use right now. So don't give me that bullshit that the US is any more capable of living on it's own then any other country.

Also prior to 1950 North Korea's only crime was after world war 2 ended in 1945 was the beginning of a rapid investment into the development of nuclear and chemical weaponry along with a massive increase in troop numbers. This is not a crime under international law, it never has been and likely will never be. And during UN negotiations North Korea further stated, quite rightfully so that no foreign power like the UN may interfere with a sovereign state when no crime has been committed.

This did not sit well with the United States whom at this point in history were the only nuclear power . And they used their veto power to force a resolution to enact what would be the first in a series of trade embargoes .


outontheop wrote:


Wow... now I'm sorry I took the time to bother replying to your original post; you are frankly so far out of touch with reality it's not even worth my time.


Says the man who has not put forth one single fact to support their flawed world view.
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Posted 4/1/16 , edited 4/2/16

Ranwolf wrote:

Says the man who has not put forth one single fact to support their flawed world view.


Why should I? Your assertions are so flawed at core that it isn't even worth responding. You clearly don't know much about the US economy. Hint: it is a net exporter of foodstuffs (http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/international-markets-trade/us-agricultural-trade/export-share-of-production.aspx). Not by any small margin, either. The US has so much food production capability that it frequently subsidizes farmers to NOT produce any crops, so as to moderate market fluctuations on food supplies (not really a policy I agree with, but whatever). I don't think you even have any notion of just HOW much arable land there is in the US, or how productive it is. The only reason the US imports any food at all is because Americans are well-to-do enough that they can afford to splurge on exotic foreign foods which cannot be effectively cultivated in US climates. This does not mean the US is incapable of meeting it's citizen's dietary needs, merely that there are a lot of foodies that like chocolate and coffee and exotic fruits. These all fall under the "luxury goods" classification I mentioned earlier.

Then there's the fact that the US *exports* petroleum, of higher quality than almost anywhere else (having not done so for 40 years due not to lack of supply, but rather regulations intended to preserve the strategic reserve).

North Korea initiated a war of aggression to annex territory. They commit mass human rights abuse of their own citizens (not that the international community should give a damn about that), they have *actively* refused to come to the bargaining table to actually negotiate an end to the war, for 60 years.

News flash: North Korea is still at a state of war, and WANTS to be at a state of war, and moreover, WANTS the embargos, (in much the same way as Farah Aidid and crew stood to gain from orchestrating the artificial famines in Somalia in the 90s) because the embargoes create a dependent citizenry who can be plied into directing their rage against their "American oppressors" and therefore reinforce support for a regime that could never survive if the citizenry were not kept in constant deprivation. The North Korean regime does not *want* to integrate into the world community. They would implode if they did. It is much harder to revolt when you're literally starving to death.

If they wanted to end the sanctions, they have only to comply with the WMD and ballistic missile non-proliferation treaties.

And, y'know, stop sending special forces across the border to assassinate ROK politicians ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_Raid )

Oh, or landing hundreds of commandos from the sea into the South and murdering civilians. (1968, and again in 1996: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Gangneung_submarine_infiltration_incident, and the related 1998 incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sokcho_submarine_incident)

Or digging military tunnels under the border for the express purpose of infiltrating assassins and special forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Tunnel_of_Aggression)

Or repeatedly violating the ROKs sovereign border and then opening fire on them when the ROK navy defends it's maritime border (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Yeonpyeong ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Yeonpyeong)

And they definitely should lay off the deliberate and premeditated sinking of foreign vessels and destruction of foreign aircraft in/ over international waters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking)

Pretty sure the international community frowns on bombarding islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong)

It might help if they stopped constantly threatening to turn Seoul into a "sea of fire", too.

But, no, you're right. No reason for that badnasty embargo. I mean, it's not like they would immediately export restricted arms to state sponsors of terrorism, right? Oh, wait, http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottasnyder/2014/03/19/north-koreas-illicit-arms-trade-unmasked/#1c0e187f467a

I just can't imagine why every competent statesman, to include those of China, historically the DPRK's greatest ally, are on-board with embargoing north Korea

You know what, maybe just read http://csis.org/files/publication/100525_North_Koreas_Provocations.pdf

I can only assume you are simply trying to troll people.

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so everything is normal for NK
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If the U.S. were embargoed, that would be the greatest thing that could happen to us. All of our companies that have factories in foreign countries would have to close those down, and come back to the U.S. We'd have factory jobs again! We wouldn't have to settle to work as burger flippers and car washers.

Sure, I'll miss eating bananas, avocados, and green tea flavored Kit-Kat bars, but I'll manage on U.S. grown lettuce, beans, squashes, wheat, rice, oats, beef, chicken, turkey, salmon, lobster, etc, etc, etc....

Of course, that means that since the U.S. is being embargoed, all of those American owned factories in foreign countries will have to close, because all of those profits will ultimately end up in the U.S. Can't have that. Most of those American owned factories make products that are then "imported" to the United States to be sold to Americans...., so we won't be able to buy any of that stuff anymore.

That's O.K. though, because those companies will then have to relocate their factories back here on U.S. soil. We'll have good jobs again! I can hardly wait! Hey, America! Let's get embargoed....

Of course that means that there will probably also be a beef shortage around the world, since we provide a significant percentage of beef world wide. Wheat and corn will be on short supply, too. Who knows what other foods that we export that will be in short supply. McDonald's franchises around the world, for example, will have to raise prices of Big Mac's because beef prices will shoot up world wide (except in the U.S., where we will suddenly find ourselves with all kinds of food gluts, because we can't export anything).

I guess that's the price of embargoing the United States.... As long as we get our factory jobs back, I don't care! Come on, World! Embargo the U.S.!
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Posted 4/1/16 , edited 4/1/16

outontheop wrote:



If they wanted to end the sanctions, they have only to comply with the WMD and ballistic missile non-proliferation treaties.


Funny that the US, Russia, and China don't have to comply with that. An international treaty should only be enforceable to the parties that agreed to be a part of it. That does not include North Korea. A sovereign state is only sovereign when it's free to run it's own affairs

outontheop wrote:

And, y'know, stop sending special forces across the border to assassinate ROK politicians ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_Raid )

Or digging military tunnels under the border for the express purpose of infiltrating assassins and special forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Tunnel_of_Aggression)

Or repeatedly violating the ROKs sovereign border and then opening fire on them when the ROK navy defends it's maritime border (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Yeonpyeong ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Yeonpyeong)

And they definitely should lay off the deliberate and premeditated sinking of foreign vessels and destruction of foreign aircraft in/ over international waters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking)

Pretty sure the international community frowns on bombarding islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong)

It might help if they stopped constantly threatening to turn Seoul into a "sea of fire", too.


You yourself said it mate , North Korea is in a state of war. And thus having legally declared war against South Korea and their allies there is no international law that prohibits them from carrying out acts of war such as these.


Does North Korea have it's issues sure. But there is no good side to this conflict mate . And if you Yanks truly felt so outraged by it why not send in your military to restore order and a democratic government in North Korea like you've done in Iraq..But wait North Korea's oil reserves aren't anywhere near tempting enough are they.

I mean it's not like your military can hand North Korea their ass or anything...


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Posted 4/2/16 , edited 4/2/16

Ranwolf wrote:

Funny that the US, Russia, and China don't have to comply with that. An international treaty should only be enforceable to the parties that agreed to be a part of it. That does not include North Korea. A sovereign state is only sovereign when it's free to run it's own affairs


Really? Funny, I see a double standard, because other nations have spent the past few years on a soapbox about cluster munitions, even though the US didn't sign the agreement, and even though they are actually working to comply with it anyway (the "ban" is not a ban, it simply requires submunitions to have a zero dud rate OR a minimum weight for each submunition, and doesn't mandate destruction of arms outside those bounds until 2018). Or when the US uses white phosphorus (which is, by the way, legally allowed as a screening IE smoke-producing agent, as well as permissible against materiel), people get all uppity about "chemical weapons" (it's not; it displaces oxygen, and is thus a "chemical weapon" only in the way you could call carbon monoxide a "chemical weapon", in which case everyone that has ever run a car or gas stove has manufactured chemical weapons).

So... are sovereign nations subject to international agreements or not?


Ranwolf wrote:

You yourself said it mate , North Korea is in a state of war. And thus having legally declared war against South Korea and their allies there is no international law that prohibits them from carrying out acts of war such as these.


They are also under a state of armistice. They have repeatedly broken the armistice, and as a result, the opposing belligerents are no longer legally bound to the terms of the armistice. By your logic, it would be legal for the ROK to flatten Pyongyang with a strategic bombing campaign.

Oh, and blockades are also a quite viable military tactic, so I guess since it's so important to you that they're technically at war, then I guess they're technically not embargoed at all; they are blockaded


Ranwolf wrote:

Does North Korea have it's issues sure. But there is no good side to this conflict mate . And if you Yanks truly felt so outraged by it why not send in your military to restore order and a democratic government in North Korea like you've done in Iraq..But wait North Korea's oil reserves aren't anywhere near tempting enough are they.


Now you're just trolling. Clearly hoping to get a rise. Good luck. Either way, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. This persistent notion that Iraq was about oil is so inexplicably popular. Well, among idiots who haven't done any research beyond locating Iraq on a map, anyway. First, the US expended far more petroleum fighting than they would have gained, making it a net loss, and the military staff knew full well that would be the case. Second, the Iraqis were given ( given !) control of their own oil fields as part of reconstruction planning. The US didn't "steal" a drop of oil, the Iraqis were allowed to sell it on open market to fund internal development. They squandered their oil income with corruption (along with billions of dollars given to them by the US for infrastructure development; if anything, it was Iraq doing the stealing), but that's neither here nor there. Lastly, if the US had wanted to exploit Iraqi oil reserves, it could have done so by maintaining the status quo: embargo Iraq, enforce a no-fly zone, and use the embargo to coerce Iraq into providing oil at negligible price in return for being provided goods that were denied it under embargo. The US would have got more oil, cheaper, at no military cost to the US beyond what it already expended on embargo enforcement.


Ranwolf wrote:
I mean it's not like your military can hand North Korea their ass or anything...


The US military would crush the DPRK in, most likely, under four months. For that matter, the US isn't needed at all. The ROK military is capable of handily defeating the DPRK without any external support (beyond maybe securing sea lanes against DPRK shallow-water submarine activity in support of petroleum import). That's not the point. No one wants to actively pursue the military conclusion of the war because the DPRK knows they would lose and lose badly, the ROK knows Seoul would be flattened by DPRK long-range and rocket artillery in the first week before the Kaesong heights could be secured, and the US stands to gain nothing from it, as both the US and ROK would gain nothing but a crippled (even before any damage from an invasion) economy in the North that would require the UN (in other words, the US, since everyone else sends token forces) to provide every necessity for the entire population for probably not less than ten years. The only benefits (other than preventing the north from exporting WMD to anyone who's buying) would be seen probably forty years down the line, when the north finally manages to establish meaningful industry. It took the ROK until the 80s to establish meaningful industry; East Germany, which was in a lesser state of deprivation under the GDR, is *still* economically and industrially weak compared to the west, and they merged over 25 years ago.
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Posted 4/2/16 , edited 4/2/16

outontheop wrote:


The US military would crush the DPRK in, most likely, under four months. For that matter, the US isn't needed at all. The ROK military is capable of handily defeating the DPRK without any external support (beyond maybe securing sea lanes against DPRK shallow-water submarine activity in support of petroleum import). That's not the point. No one wants to actively pursue the military conclusion of the war because the DPRK knows they would lose and lose badly, the ROK knows Seoul would be flattened by DPRK long-range and rocket artillery in the first week before the Kaesong heights could be secured, and the US stands to gain nothing from it, as both the US and ROK would gain nothing but a crippled (even before any damage from an invasion) economy in the North that would require the UN (in other words, the US, since everyone else sends token forces) to provide every necessity for the entire population for probably not less than ten years. The only benefits (other than preventing the north from exporting WMD to anyone who's buying) would be seen probably forty years down the line, when the north finally manages to establish meaningful industry. It took the ROK until the 80s to establish meaningful industry; East Germany, which was in a lesser state of deprivation under the GDR, is *still* economically and industrially weak compared to the west, and they merged over 25 years ago.


Now we've gotten to the heart of the matter. The complete and utter apathy even South Korea let alone the rest of the world has towards North Korea. We bitch we moan, we even enact trade sanctions . But despite being shown North Korea is literally at this point willing to starve to death then bow before international pressure we don't do anything of any real substance.

Only because we wouldn't see a payday..Since when did helping people require a pay cheque . We either care about North Korea or we don't. You at least it seems don't so I rather think you've lost your right to complain about anything North Korea does.
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DarksirenxX wrote:


Ranwolf wrote:


namealreadytaken wrote:

people in NK were being fed with worms, and insects just fine.


First off there is no actual proof that before the trade embargoes were imposed that North Koreans were suffering from a famine level economy. And secondly you still haven't answered my question. Why should any nation be pressured to bow before American backed UN demands when those demands are to remain weak enough to have to bow before American military might?

Is it against international law to be as powerful as the Americans these days? If so why was not the Soviet Union or China these days receiving the same level of American lead international pressure?


Firstly i dont belive that it was just the U.S. that imposed sanctions on NC. It was something done by the UN if im not mistaken.
and also it is the duty of the united nations to insure the safety of the rest of the world. North Korea doesnt seem very credible when it comes to owning weapons that could kill a couple hundred thousand people at once. especially not when they have already threatened to hit new york with them. a ruler that threatens to kill a city with nukes because shit isnt going his way isnt responsible enough to be trusted with that. therefore, for the sake of the rest of the world i see nothing wrong with the un telling NC to stop producing them.

Also why do you think there is no proof that the citizens of North Korea were starving or eating worms and roots? I can give you a clue. there is no proof the they weren't. why do you think that is? its because North Korea doesnt let anyone in to see the condition of their people. if there were nothing wrong do you think they would be so secretive. Man the way you stand up for oppression of the north korean people is kinda twisted to be honest. I dont agree with telling someone else how to live but think about all the lives that are being crushed under the thumb of one man. i think that if he chose to be in the position of leadership he should answer to the rest of the world about the way he is running these peoples lives. saying that we should just let him do his thing and who cares about all the people of north korea is just a disrespect for life.



by NC do you mean north Carolina?
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Posted 4/2/16 , edited 4/2/16

Ranwolf wrote:

Now we've gotten to the heart of the matter. The complete and utter apathy even South Korea let alone the rest of the world has towards North Korea. We bitch we moan, we even enact trade sanctions . But despite being shown North Korea is literally at this point willing to starve to death then bow before international pressure we don't do anything of any real substance.

Only because we wouldn't see a payday..Since when did helping people require a pay cheque . We either care about North Korea or we don't. You at least it seems don't so I rather think you've lost your right to complain about anything North Korea does.


Gee, you make it sound so easy!

If it were simply a matter of "helping people", the US would be happy to. After all, the US sends billions abroad in aid to Africa, Asia, and the Pacific with no expectation (or hope for) a return on investment. Which is, by the way, significantly more than MOST nations do.

However, there is a HUGE difference between "hey, it's just going to cost some money and effort and we'll help some people who are generally apathetic to mildly supportive of the US" versus "let's sacrifice millions of friendly, innocent South Koreans and millions more of north Koreans and cripple a leading world economy, and potentially kill thousands of Japanese in the meantime, in the hope of eventually rendering aid to a nation of people overtly hostile to us, our allies, democracy, and our very ethical basis",

Of course, we could just send aid, but even "hey, let's send food and medical aid to north Korea at great expense to ourselves, so a vile dictator can parade it as a propaganda victory of some (imagined) triumph over the evil America, further reinforcing his resolve to use threats and shows of force to intimidate the world into submission and using the incident to rally support behind himself... and then divert most of it to military use anyway" sounds pretty unpalatable. The UN and US and ROK have been giving aid to the DPRK for decades. Experience has shown it doesn't make it to the common citizens, and all it does is perpetuate the DPRK's cycle of making threats > military demonstrations and tests > cross-border attacks > demand payment in aid to stop > receive aid > start all over again. It helps no one that deserves help, in the end. The DPRKs primary export is threats

As much as you seem to hate America, it's not apathy on the part of America that prevents useful aid from making it to DPRK citizens. Even if we GAVE it to north Korea, which would be politically stupid and economically wasteful, it would win nothing for the US, not even a warm-fuzzy for our own humanitarian notions, because precious little of it would make it to the people that actually need it anyway.

Tell you what, go free a rabid wolf from a trap because it's "the right thing to do", and let me know how that goes for you.
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Posted 4/2/16 , edited 4/2/16

redokami wrote:

by NC do you mean north Carolina?


I would assume he/she is from a nation that spells it differently.

Korea is, in English, named after the Goryeo dynasty... and can be found spelled with a G, C, or K.
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outontheop wrote:


redokami wrote:

by NC do you mean north Carolina?


I would assume he/she is from a nation that spells it differently.

Korea is, in English, named after the Goryo dynasty... and can be found spelled with a G, C, or K.


I was teasing
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outontheop wrote:


Gee, you make it sound so easy!

If it were simply a matter of "helping people", the US would be happy to. After all, the US sends billions abroad in aid to Africa, Asia, and the Pacific with no expectation (or hope for) a return on investment. Which is, by the way, significantly more than MOST nations do.

However, there is a HUGE difference between "hey, it's just going to cost some money and effort and we'll help some people who are generally apathetic to mildly supportive of the US" versus "let's sacrifice millions of friendly, innocent South Koreans and millions more of north Koreans and cripple a leading world economy, and potentially kill thousands of Japanese in the meantime, in the hope of eventually rendering aid to a nation of people overtly hostile to us, our allies, democracy, and our very ethical basis", or even "hey, let's send food and medical aid to north Korea at great expense to ourselves, so a vile dictator can parade it as a propaganda victory of some (imagined) triumph over the evil America, further reinforcing his resolve to use threats and shows of force to intimidate the world into submission and using the incident to rally support behind himself... and then divert most of it to military use anyway"

As much as you seem to hate America, it's not apathy on the part of America that prevents useful aid from making it to DPRK citizens. Even if we GAVE it to north Korea, which would be politically stupid and economically wasteful, it would win nothing for the US, not even a warm-fuzzy for our own humanitarian notions, because precious little of it would make it to the people that actually need it anyway.

Tell you what, go free a rabid wolf from a trap because it's "the right thing to do", and let me know how that goes for you.


And why pray tell do you assume the average North Korean citizen is overtly hostile to the world at large. I mean if even a thousandth of the stuff the average defector says is true the current state of affairs in North Korea are not exactly hatred of the world. Rather the reverse, I mean these defectors are literally willing to risk life and limb for a chance , a mere chance at a better life. This after likely dodging the military fubar that is the NK and SK border.

And besides too much of the hype surrounding North Korea sounds like the hype that surrounded the Soviet Union and we all know that turned out to mainly bullshit and half truths. And I don't particularly hate America, I just wished you lot would either shut up and stop making noise for no reason or actually do something about half the stuff that seems to bug you as a nation . You don't get to preach from a pulpit to your congregation and not lead by example.

The situation in North Korea is either bad enough to warrant whatever costs it would take to right it or it's just so much American propaganda. There is no other choice really.
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Posted 4/2/16 , edited 4/2/16

Ranwolf wrote:


And why pray tell do you assume the average North Korean citizen is overtly hostile to the world at large. I mean if even a thousandth of the stuff the average defector says is true the current state of affairs in North Korea are not exactly hatred of the world. Rather the reverse, I mean these defectors are literally willing to risk life and limb for a chance , a mere chance at a better life. This after likely dodging the military fubar that is the NK and SK border.

And besides too much of the hype surrounding North Korea sounds like the hype that surrounded the Soviet Union and we all know that turned out to mainly bullshit and half truths. And I don't particularly hate America, I just wished you lot would either shut up and stop making noise for no reason or actually do something about half the stuff that seems to bug you as a nation . You don't get to preach from a pulpit to your congregation and not lead by example.

The situation in North Korea is either bad enough to warrant whatever costs it would take to right it or it's just so much American propaganda. There is no other choice really.


That is literally the dumbest false dichotomy I have ever seen. You clearly have no sense of nuance.
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Posted 4/2/16 , edited 4/2/16

Ranwolf wrote:


And why pray tell do you assume the average North Korean citizen is overtly hostile to the world at large. I mean if even a thousandth of the stuff the average defector says is true the current state of affairs in North Korea are not exactly hatred of the world. Rather the reverse, I mean these defectors are literally willing to risk life and limb for a chance , a mere chance at a better life. This after likely dodging the military fubar that is the NK and SK border.

And besides too much of the hype surrounding North Korea sounds like the hype that surrounded the Soviet Union and we all know that turned out to mainly bullshit and half truths. And I don't particularly hate America, I just wished you lot would either shut up and stop making noise for no reason or actually do something about half the stuff that seems to bug you as a nation . You don't get to preach from a pulpit to your congregation and not lead by example.

The situation in North Korea is either bad enough to warrant whatever costs it would take to right it or it's just so much American propaganda. There is no other choice really.


Also, since you seem convinced the US doesn't want to help anyone: https://www.globalpolicy.org/un-finance/tables-and-charts-on-un-finance/the-financing-of-the-un-programmes-funds-and-specialized-agencies.html

By all means, check the top contributors lists. A particular favorite of mine: over 40% of the entire world contribution to the UNHCR. And they say we aren't doing our part helping Syrian refugees

Now, go fuck yourself.
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outontheop wrote:


Ranwolf wrote:


And why pray tell do you assume the average North Korean citizen is overtly hostile to the world at large. I mean if even a thousandth of the stuff the average defector says is true the current state of affairs in North Korea are not exactly hatred of the world. Rather the reverse, I mean these defectors are literally willing to risk life and limb for a chance , a mere chance at a better life. This after likely dodging the military fubar that is the NK and SK border.

And besides too much of the hype surrounding North Korea sounds like the hype that surrounded the Soviet Union and we all know that turned out to mainly bullshit and half truths. And I don't particularly hate America, I just wished you lot would either shut up and stop making noise for no reason or actually do something about half the stuff that seems to bug you as a nation . You don't get to preach from a pulpit to your congregation and not lead by example.

The situation in North Korea is either bad enough to warrant whatever costs it would take to right it or it's just so much American propaganda. There is no other choice really.


That is literally the dumbest false dichotomy I have ever seen. You clearly have no sense of nuance.


And pray tell what does the concept of two opposites existing together or my understanding of subtly have to do with the matter at hand? I mean if you have no retort just say so, there's no need to act like some smug self satisfied prick you know.
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