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Reason
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16

auroraloose wrote:

This is a fun thread.


I thought so too.


auroraloose wrote:


I really appreciated this analysis. Thank you for that.

You mentioned the feeling of belonging, and I have to admit I too get that when I draw out this side of people. I love engaging with people in these contexts and their ideas. For that moment I have something to share and offer. When I draw this side of people it reminds me how similar other people can still be. Similarity is the shadow of difference. I prefer being wrong and being humbled for that reason--it is relieving and educative rather than distasteful. Perhaps that's why I'm nearly obsessed in being challenged by other people.

Narcissism is difficult to avoid in a world that provides the desire to relate to other people, but whom commonly have the habit of demanding my dishonesty. Unfortunately, the dishonest route is even more miserable--a loneliness found even in the company of others. I cannot seem to dissuade some of my snark from bubbling to the surface--often from places of resentment in the way people treat me. It does give me some level of satisfaction to defend myself like many others. I do typically remain more playful than maliciously intent on inflicting suffering though.

To curtail my ego it takes almost a thieving desire to get the best out of people. I've developed a bad habit of pushing buttons and teasing to accomplish it. Something I must remain vigilant of.

Having flaws is rather unavoidable when you're human. Building ourselves and debugging those flaws is a perpetual endeavor. However, while perfection may be unreachable as much as it is indeterminate--the effort we put in does not necessarily have no benefit to be reaped.






auroraloose wrote:

And the original topic:

Reason is a word - and so is defined by the community of users of that word. The English-speaking community tends to think of it as the word for some kind of objective thought-faculty, but it often gets used as a bludgeon against one's ideological enemies: whatever supports my views is Reason. The perception of what reason stands for is exactly what makes it useful as a bludgeon. I think the most amusing example of the word being used this way is Al Gore's book, The Assault on Reason. I believe Gore joked that both sides of the debate would consider his book aptly named.

I don't really think reason is necessarily axiomatic, or the same as logic. This is partly because the word reasoning can refer to thinking based off any sort of principles, like intuition. Spatial reasoning doesn't sound particularly logical. So I think reason can indeed be empathetic. It's easy to split reason off of emotion, though, as humans also tend to make bad decisions based off emotions. There's a historical/experiential pressure to divide the two. I think it's hard to define reason an out-there thing due to the word's dependence on human use.

So I think people use the word reason as they're taught to by the preexisting community. And since people are selfish, tribal attention-seekers, they'll naturally do strange things to the concept "reason" and the word itself.


Unfortunate, yet frustrating in its probable truth. It is likely due my recently increased awareness of tribal behavior that has me so dissatisfied with its current usage by the community.

When I had expressed my growing dissatisfaction regarding tribal behaviors before I had made the mistake of attributing the cause of my dissatisfaction to the behavior getting worse when it had really had always been there. It was only my awareness of it that had been increasing instead. I wonder to what degree it is my awareness that plays into my perception of reason and logic being sullied similar.

There is some growing evidence that more emotional dispositions and thought processes repress more systematic ones--so perhaps the desire to divide the two has a small element of truth. Although, of course, that small truth is probably exaggerated beyond its scope. I don't think them entirely mutually exclusive, and so I currently reside to think similar. I would like to take it even a small step further to say that a position of reason can be derived from a place that is both logical and empathetic (although the degree of each component depending). To attempt to clarify my point, I do actually think the path of reason is exclusive to dispassionate thought (although not discounting for the existence of empathy), but I do not think the position of reason is exclusively reached by that path (that empathy can provide a different means of reaching equitable conclusion). Perhaps it is better thought that reasoning is more exclusive and reason is not. Whether reaching reason by either means is less satisfactory is perhaps where individuals may differ in being persuaded. Commonly, the empathetic route has shown to be more persuasive for the majority.

I prefer to label humans as self-interested rather than selfish. To say that people are concerned for their well being rather than exclusively. Not that I'm dismissing that there are many people that are more selfish.
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16

PrinceJudar wrote:

auroraloose wrote:
This is a fun thread.

I thought so too.
...
Hopefully the notification this post gives you turns you on as much as your post did me.
oh god, reason and now the reason for all of this!
I knew my Yuri sensor was detecting something.

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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16

Freddy96NO wrote:
Oh god, reason and now the reason for all of this!


Uh, insightful posts excite me? I don't know what to tell you.

I guess it's probably similar as to why brilliant League of Legends plays are sexy to me.


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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16

zangetsushi wrote:

While you creeps are masturbating each other over this subject, there are people out there making constructive use of their time. Your reasoning and logic are flawed because you aren't doing anything that matters. You want to come on here and try to convince others that what you are doing matters in the least? You're dating yourselves while inflated on hypocritical self-notions. Your pretentiousness and closeted, flagrant homosexuality isn't impressing anyone. You are nothings with nothing to say. Bags of hot air and nothing more.


Stay in the salt circle and keep calm my friend.

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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16
Yea reading books is hard.
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16

zangetsushi wrote:

. . . there are people out there making constructive use of their time . . .
Such as yourself?
Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16

PrinceJudar wrote:

I really appreciated this analysis. Thank you for that.


Thanks for starting this conversation. I was indeed happy to see the notification pop up.


PrinceJudar wrote:

I cannot seem to dissuade some of my snark from bubbling to the surface--often from places of resentment in the way people treat me. It does give me some level of satisfaction to defend myself like many others. I do typically remain more playful than maliciously intent on inflicting suffering though.


I like this. Snark doesn't have to be bad, but we certainly possess at least some desire floating around in our heads to be hurtful with it.

I used to motive-dive: I'd sit and think through all the possible desires driving me, and it was really depressing to find a selfish, emotional, and sometimes hurtful tangle. I thought I was a horrible person for being so childish. I still kind of think I am, but I know a little better now. It'd take far too long to go through all of it, but for the anime community it'll suffice to say this is why my second-favorite anime is the Monogatari series, and Nisemonogatari in particular. (No, it's not because of the toothbrush scene.) So, understanding that we all have the tendency to behave unsavorily - that we're all based on the same template - I think that my humor has become far more self-deprecating: I like to laugh at myself, because I used to take myself way too seriously. As I know it's just as likely I'd make the mistakes I see other people making, it helps me to keep things in perspective in conflicts. If I can play around and laugh at myself, I think I'm less likely to be obnoxious.


PrinceJudar wrote:

When I had expressed my growing dissatisfaction regarding tribal behaviors before I had made the mistake of attributing the cause of my dissatisfaction to the behavior getting worse when it had really had always been there. It was only my awareness of it that had been increasing instead. I wonder to what degree it is my awareness that plays into my perception of reason and logic being sullied similar.


It's so hard to disentangle ourselves from our deeply-held beliefs and causes. I used to have a semi-Randian disgust for the lazy and dishonest factions at my work, but later I realized that people are just kind of like that. Further, I realized that my perception of the "offenders" in my mind was hyperbolized because I had thought incorrectly that I was way better than they were. For this kind of stuff I recommend Doris Lessing's Prisons We Choose to Live Inside. Unfortunately I didn't find this book until long after I learned my lesson.
Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


zangetsushi wrote:

. . . there are people out there making constructive use of their time . . .
Such as yourself?


I built the pyramids... with my D.
Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16
Thinking and feeling are two halves of the same coin. Without one or the other, we would be either heartless robots unable to enjoy the rewards of our accomplishments or be nothing but mindless savages driven by our desires, unable to plan or accomplish anything. Reason is about as important as life itself into today's society for it to function, but its not any more or less important as someone's heart, which motivates their ideas and aspirations...
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16
Reasoning, in a sense, is evaluation. We evaluate many things in life -- especially individuals. There is no denying that everything in life faces judgement. The values, the choices, the experiences, the knowledge, the wisdom, and virtues are amongst the many factors that coalesce upon reasoning. Reason changes when there is a slide in one of the aforementioned factors. If individuals choose not to pursue paths that have little or no effect in these fields, their reasoning remains static. In any case, this is my personal opinion from the threads of my particular existence. I don't speak for the collective mass of others.

I don't think I'm qualified to answer the question: "Do you think people have lost touch with it(reason)?
Depending on the community's general identity, the answer varies.

My general assessment of how society views reasoning: they don't care to understand it. They don't want to understand it, even though they practice reason every waking moment of their life. They want someone with credentials to tell them how they should feel because it's easier.
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/24/16
And now for the fun part.


zangetsushi wrote:

While you creeps are masturbating each other over this subject, there are people out there making constructive use of their time. Your reasoning and logic are flawed because you aren't doing anything that matters. You want to come on here and try to convince others that what you are doing matters in the least? You're dating yourselves while inflated on hypocritical self-notions. Your pretentiousness and closeted, flagrant homosexuality isn't impressing anyone. You are nothings with nothing to say. Bags of hot air and nothing more.


The most relieving part of understanding how emotional and messed-up our thinking gets is that I don't have to be too hard on myself when I too mess up. Of course this conversation is kinda masturbatory; I basically said so already. The theory I espoused says we should expect ourselves to act with self-satisfying motives, and I even applied it to my own motives in writing my initial post. Indeed, all writing is somewhat masturbatory - internet comments especially so. And I do enjoy writing, if you know what I mean.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying ourselves, though as a card-carrying ivory tower member myself I do understand the hot-air accusation. This is actually part of the Marxist critique of academia - that it sits back, reinforces the oppressors, and gives the masses nice moral stories to keep them in line. I will admit that I'm a nothing, but if you'll permit be to be serious, I do think I have something to say. And people seem to be listening, though the flagrant homosexuality may have something to do with that too. And that's okay.

So what does blathering about nonsense here do? Well, for starters I'm learning something, and that's enough for me. If, like me, you've spent a few years teaching, you realize that the act of conveying one's ideas itself solidifies your understanding of those ideas, so there's that too.

The other thing this discussion does is alert people to the possible pitfalls involved in arguing online. That's probably a good enough reason by itself to have this conversation.

More importantly for me, having observed my peers cause conflicts and make leadership mistakes because they didn't understand human behavior - in themselves or others - and having made such mistakes myself, I think it important to get the word out: on average, everyone is the same. You have the same skills and flaws as your enemy, so be understanding.

I'm actually happy you brought this up, zangetsushi: your point is worth discussing, and I'm a masochist. I'll leave up in the air which sense of that word I'm using.
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Posted 4/24/16 , edited 4/24/16
It's incredibly hard to be totally objective since we all have some biases.
Posted 4/24/16 , edited 4/24/16
Question. Why has this topic been hit by such animosity? I'd understand if the topic was slightly controversial but it's not.
Posted 4/24/16 , edited 4/24/16

GrandMasterTime wrote:

Question. Why has this topic been hit by such animosity? I'd understand if the topic was slightly controversial but it's not.


Because people lack reason xDD
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