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Post Reply Can the U.S. be Invaded and conquered without Nukes?
Kintor 
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Posted 4/23/16

churuchurupayapa wrote:

No.

In any invasion large enough to conquer the United States, the U.S. fires every nuclear weapon available and wipes out life on earth. Same thing with Russia, even though they're weaker and economically middling, they have enough nukes from the Cold War period and their recent, ill-advised "modernization" to create a nuclear winter.

It's possible by conventional means, if like every advanced country and then some chipped in. But it wouldn't necessarily be a certainty that the U.S. would lose. That being said, it can't happen because the U.S. hits the big red button if that scenario comes up anyway.

What you describe is the way that the game is supposed to end. M.A.D. Mutual Assured Destruction: if an enemy presents an existential threat then the USA will respond in kind by firing its nuclear weapons, then everybody else fires their nukes, thus destroying the world in nuclear fire. But here's the thing, would events actually play out that way?

It's as serious question, one without a ready answer. Because no person has ever had to make that choice, to kill everybody on the planet in an instant, because they can no longer see a forward for their nation. Gorbachev didn't destroy the world with his nuclear weapons when the Soviet Union collapsed. Perhaps then some hypothetical US President, faced with the imminent loss of American power, would also decide not to fire his nukes. Even in defeat, with the USA conquered by a foreign power, the majority of the US population would still be alive. Yet if nukes where used the same couldn't said, not a single American would be left alive, the USA would never rise again in any capacity.

So then, it might come down to the temperament of the US President currently in office. They could choose to hold their fire, leaving the nuke in their silos, living to fight another day. Alternatively, they could choose to destroy the world out, to carry out the threat of nuclear annihilation to its grim conclusion. It's this surprising level of ambiguity, in regards to the use of nuclear weapons, which leaves room for warfare to take place in the modern world. For all the bluster surround nuclear weapons as a deterrent such doomsday weapons have done little to abate conflict around the world.
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16
No one can conquer 『THE WALL
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Posted 4/23/16
Invaded yes, conquered is another matter entirely. The United States is a large land mass with an armed population, the invading forces (no matter where they start the assault from) would eventually be severely hindered by not only the people but the varying terrain. You guys proved that during your war for independence.

There would be no point in invading the United States anyway. If the US somehow managed to tick off the entire world we'd more likely do what you guys always do to the rest of us: slap on a bunch of sanctions and embargoes and make living and doing business difficult.

Say whatever I want because Bahamians sit and walls and complain for fun!

To dragontackle: Breakfast can wait!
Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16
Not impossible, but it would be a long and bloody process if done by conventional means. Of course their would be retaliation against the country or countries that try.
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16
They will war themselfs, then muslims will take over XP
Then Russia nukes the place leading Korea to take over the world.
Lexxuk 
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Posted 4/23/16

Ejanss wrote:

8) They tried once, but Chuck Norris stopped them.

(Actually, we WERE invaded without nukes, back in 1812, but the incompetence on both sides of the war was staggering.
We were both at one point beaten up by Canadians. Yes.)


That's incorrect, the war in 1812 was America invading Canada whilst the British were busy with Napoleon in Europe, America thought the Canadians would welcome them and join the US, the Canadians had other ideas. Napoleon was beat but there was no appetite in the UK for a war with the US (after such a long and expensive war with France) so we ransacked Washington DC, burnt the white house and said "lets just call it a draw, you can't win, we don't want to fight" and the US went "okay", so basically it was a failed invasion by the US of Canada, not an invasion of the US by Canada. It also gave rise to the US national anthem, which is nice.

As for who could beat the US without Nukes? Probably China. China holds a *lot* of US dollars, and I mean a lot. If they dumped their US currency it would heavily affect the US economy bringing it to it's knees, very quickly the dollar would be ejected as a global currency (it would be worthless) and replaced with the Euro, with the dollar being worth less than toilet paper you would have trouble funding that huge military machine and would go bankrupt pretty quickly. Of course, this would have huge knock on effects on the rest of the world so is not something that would happen, but it could theoretically happen, a bloodless war which the US couldn't win. Just remember, one of the main reasons the US can pay for it's war machines is because oil is in $, remove that and the US economy is among the very worst in the world.
Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16

Lexxuk wrote:


Ejanss wrote:

8) They tried once, but Chuck Norris stopped them.

(Actually, we WERE invaded without nukes, back in 1812, but the incompetence on both sides of the war was staggering.
We were both at one point beaten up by Canadians. Yes.)


That's incorrect, the war in 1812 was America invading Canada whilst the British were busy with Napoleon in Europe, America thought the Canadians would welcome them and join the US, the Canadians had other ideas. Napoleon was beat but there was no appetite in the UK for a war with the US (after such a long and expensive war with France) so we ransacked Washington DC, burnt the white house and said "lets just call it a draw, you can't win, we don't want to fight" and the US went "okay", so basically it was a failed invasion by the US of Canada, not an invasion of the US by Canada. It also gave rise to the US national anthem, which is nice.

As for who could beat the US without Nukes? Probably China. China holds a *lot* of US dollars, and I mean a lot. If they dumped their US currency it would heavily affect the US economy bringing it to it's knees, very quickly the dollar would be ejected as a global currency (it would be worthless) and replaced with the Euro, with the dollar being worth less than toilet paper you would have trouble funding that huge military machine and would go bankrupt pretty quickly. Of course, this would have huge knock on effects on the rest of the world so is not something that would happen, but it could theoretically happen, a bloodless war which the US couldn't win. Just remember, one of the main reasons the US can pay for it's war machines is because oil is in $, remove that and the US economy is among the very worst in the world.


China is currently burning it's reserves (including U.S bonds) of foreign currency trying to keep it's own economy afloat. China holds approximately 1.2237 trillion in U.S debt as of 2015 (Japan holds slightly more 1.2244 trillion). As for dumping, they kind of are or at least selling at an very rapid pace. Fortunately demand for U.S treasury bonds is fairly robust so the effects are relatively mild.

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Posted 4/23/16
How easy or hard would it be for AMERICA to invade a superpower country?
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Posted 4/23/16

D4nc3Style wrote:


Kyser13th wrote:


Melviniammelvin wrote:

Like what someone eariler mentioned, America can probably be taken down by regular citizens. Think about it, not including government aids like social security income and medicare who really runs America? Who gives you food? Farmers and yourself. Who gives you water? The water company and yourself. If people just decided one day to just stop working America would shut down.

That said America can take on and take over ALMOST any country, but they can't take down Chicago, or a city in California. The other day in this ghetto not far away from where I live a cop was chasing someone and the cop got jumped! Not a good thing, but gives you a idea of what I'm talking about.



A Cop is not a Military force, he's a police force, if the united states military was unleashed on a "Ghetto" gangs would be wiped from existence, along with everything else in the "Ghetto".


I can't wait for that to happen.


I know right? can't wait for the innocent bystanders to get shot down as well!

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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16

Nightblade370 wrote:

I'm not an incredibly nationalistic American or anything who believes we are invincible, but I ask this because after seeing it deliberated on various forums, other than with the use of a Nuclear arsenal, invading the United States old school seems highly improbable without massive casualties. Consider the following:

1) The United States has the largest military in the world with the largest budget invested into it, with our arsenal expanding constantly thanks to large military spending and the number of jobs this spending provides. Furthermore, the sheer intelligence network the United States has via personnel and satellites available would make the U.S. aware of any surprise attacks before they occur.

2) The United States Navy is massive, the most advanced in the world as of today, and the United States is surrounded by water on two sides

3) Most of the huge military bases in the United States are set up at the coasts, with the East Coast more densely protected by military and with no prime landing spots to take advantage of and the West Coast having the advantage of the Pacific Ocean, Hawaii, and the Rocky Mountains as natural barriers/warning systems against attacks.

4) The United States Air-force and the sheer amount of Aircraft carriers deployed and active as of right now make paratrooping and airstrikes a risky and unrealistic endeavor, especially on the West Coast. Even if an army succeeded in doing this, they'd be worn down and run out of supplies quickly without any secure supply chain.

5) The civilian population is a standing militia, with plenty of people willing to take up arms to defend their nation (especially in the South, Texas, and in rural areas) that can support the military in times of national emergency, even if just to relay supplies to troops.

6) Attacking from the northern border is foolish as Canada is one of the United State's best allies and marching troops through tundra and swampland would wear them down before you even reached the northern border, not to mention the United States would support Canada if invaded, making invasion improbable without mass casualties.

7) Attacking from the southern border would force troops to trek the hot, arid deserts of Mexico, another U.S. ally that the United States would support if invaded and that can still put up a fight, and would inevitably end in troops being worn down and bottle-necked between military bases in California and Texas in the middle of the desert on U.S. home turf.

As I mentioned, the United States isn't invincible or anything, but is there any probable way to even invade the U.S. without using nukes or without requiring one of the largest military alliances in human history?


Are you guys crazy? The US is filled with a bunch of gun nuts who dream of a foreign invasion so they can do some ass kicking. I don't think it's possible without losing up to about 60 to 100 million troops. Not to mention America kind of has that warrior mentality, whereas most countries are pacifistic. Fighting America would be like fighting Afghanistan. Americans "Like" to fight
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Posted 4/23/16
No. We're way too crazy. America is very good at banding together when things get bad.
Not only that but we have allies. Most of the world has diplomatic relations with the United States. It would be a huge tragedy if anything happened to the United States. We're the worlds only superpower. That pretty much makes us the most powerful nation in the world.

Here's a map of the diplomatic relations of the United States. The green indicates people we have diplomatic relations with. Red indicates who we do not. Yellow is Disputed area.

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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16
First off the U.S. is not the largest standing military in the world, that's actually China. And I can tell you right now it's possible to invade and conquer the United States without Nuclear Weapons. The U.S. would be a very difficult place to conquer due to the massive amount of resources available for its defense but it is doable.

You would have to come down through Canada because trying to hit from Mexico will see you run into Ft. Hood and the entire mechanized division, not to mention the desert, and the mass amount of resistance fights who will disrupt your lines. Hitting from, say, Michigan however would be much easier. However, you'd have to actually get through Canada and that will not be easy. Canada, as much as often make fun of our Pimpin Hat, is no push over military wise and would defend themselves and the U.S. That would give us plenty of time to respond with a massive amount of fire power. Invading the west coast is doable but again, difficult because the Pacific Fleet of the largest and most advanced in the world and trying the Atlantic will see you run into the Atlantic fleet, not to mention going around Europe and the UK.

Ultimately you'd also have to somehow spook the myriad of intelligence agencies all gathering information.

The way to do this? The same way Grant won the Civil War: Numbers. Be like, say, China, and have millions of soldiers you can throw at the enemy until ultimately they get worn down to nothing. A zerg attack might seem insane but it would work and it would be the best offense for such an entrenched force as the U.S. (This does not go into infiltration and trying to create potential problems from within the country because that's an entirely separate issue). Even then you're looking at one hell of a bloody and very protracted war and there's a good chance you'll lose.

As patriot as I am I recognize something. The U.S. will nuke itself to avoid losing. Take Norfolk? To avoid letting you get those resources we WILL destroy the entire facility. Want to talk about a country willing to raze the ground as you take it, we will do that just to spite you and deny you what you want.

Really, it's just not worth it.
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Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16

keeton52 wrote:

As somebody who dabbles a little in politics, that's about the most important part that goes into invading a country. (and the Ultimate choice of the "Nuclear Option") If somebody were to devise an invasion on such a major nation such as the US, they would need to be sure their allies support the decision (so this wouldn't be any NATO or UN country) and would have to think of how bad the following repercussions are. (Counterattack, our allies, and general civilian outrage) With guns being legal in the US, it's likely Civilian Militias would make the Invasion more costly than needed.

With Nukes though, things are a lot more complicated. MAD is still a thing. One country can't launch nukes out of fear another would do so in retaliation. And that would cycle until the planet is nothing but a cold husky shell.

You have to consider, first, why anyone would want to invade. We don't have a whole lot of resources anymore and our money is basically worthless. It's just not worth conquering. (and nuking us would definitely destroy what there actually is here)

North Korea is a wildcard though.


The United States has A LOT of resources. Just because we are more restricted to use them doesn't mean we don't have resources. For instance, if we were allowed to drill for oil here more frequently, well... let us just say that OPEC would lose pretty much any power they ever had. There is also a ton of fertile land for farming (wheat, corn and tobacco are MAJOR US exports even to this day), there is almost an endless supply of coal, there is a significant amount of valuable metals as well. The US also has the largest gold reserve in the world. The United States is probably one of the most rich nations when it comes to resources. Just because we are pigeon-holed by politics and agendas does not mean we don't have resources. Also, if the Dollar is worthless, what does that make the rest of the world's currency? Less than worthless?
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Posted 4/23/16

Lexxuk wrote:


Ejanss wrote:
(Actually, we WERE invaded without nukes, back in 1812, but the incompetence on both sides of the war was staggering.
We were both at one point beaten up by Canadians. Yes.)


That's incorrect, the war in 1812 was America invading Canada whilst the British were busy with Napoleon in Europe, America thought the Canadians would welcome them and join the US, the Canadians had other ideas. Napoleon was beat but there was no appetite in the UK for a war with the US (after such a long and expensive war with France) so we ransacked Washington DC, burnt the white house and said "lets just call it a draw, you can't win, we don't want to fight" and the US went "okay"


Oh, I see, you didn't stay, so burning down the White House doesn't count as an "invasion"...
Posted 4/23/16 , edited 4/23/16
Shhh guys y'all are gonna give ISIS ideas

JKJKJK

But seriously, and I hate sounding like your stereotypical overly-patriotic American here, but besides our weak government, America is pretty powerful.
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