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Post Reply China scrambles fighters as U.S. sails warship near Chinese-claimed reef
lawdog 
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Posted 5/10/16
Nothing new here, people. International maritime law is very clear about the rights of navigation and what countries can control as their own waters. The US Navy has championed the right of free navigation since it first became an issue during the Cold War. If the Soviet Union or Red China claimed control over waters that international law said they could not, the US Navy would send ships in, carefully staying in recognized international waters. The US did this off Libya in the 1980s, and in the Persian Gulf in the 1980s and 1990s.

The US has always been a champion of the right of free navigation, and won't tolerate interference with it. The problem, of course, is that the Obama administration refused to do this sort of thing while the Chinese were illegally cementing over these reefs, only recently allowing the US Navy to undertake these missions (the Chinese destruction of the reefs has been an environmental tragedy, which has been ignored because of who would need to be criticized).

Why stop it? Well, the Chinese have recently claimed Okinawa is actually part of China, based on tribute paid a couple of centuries ago. In other words, if you don't stop them know, will you ever stop them (sure, it's an obvious diplomatic maneuver, but the need to rein in China remains valid).

As to why? There be oil in them there reefs. And or other valuable minerals. Or so it is believed.

As to Chinese military power vs. US Navy? Right now the edge is in favor of the US. It has not been helped by the serious drawdown in the size of the US navy under the Obama administration, but it still remains a significant edge over the Chinese. That China has been putting out ballistic missiles to be used to take out US carriers has been known for years. What the US Navy has been doing to counter this potential threat is not as well known. However, the US Navy has been putting a lot of research into lasers and rail guns, both of which could potentially result in systems which could counter this threat, if it ever materializes. Because what a country says it will do with a proposed weapon system and is actually able to do with that system are often two different things.

So what does this mean? Not much, actually. The Chinese have to act all outraged in order to maintain their fiction that they actually have the right to do what they did. The US isn't going to land the Marines on these reefs; they're just going to sail around, ignoring the Chinese. All you'll have is minor little hissy fits, like how the Chinese just cancelled a planned Hong Kong port visit by the USS Stennis carrier group. That's how it'll go, up till the "islands get inundated by the next major typhoon, at which point the parties might decide if they want to keep this nonsense going at a certain expense, or enter into a mutually agreed revenue sharing plan.
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Posted 5/10/16

Kintor wrote:


D4nc3Style wrote:

Problem, China?

I love the "coiled spring" comment. What the hell are you gonna do, China? Your Navy is shit.

Don't be so quick to scorn the Chinese navy, lately they've been spending a fortune to modernise and upgrade their blue-water fleet. The Chinese have even invented a new kind of stealth cruise missile designed specifically destroy US aircraft carriers.

Plus, it certainly helps that Chinese hackers have been targeting all sorts of western companies connected to the arms industry. Today Chinese military technology isn't that far behind the USA anyway, even if much of that technology has been obtained illegally through espionage. Now it's just a question of how long it will be before the Chinese are able to mass-produce these new weapons and distribute them to their armed forces.

As for this latest incident in the South China Sea, troubling news indeed, for all parties concerned. As a region the South China Sea is one of the most dangerous flashpoints in the entire world. If you're looking to start World War Three in a hurry you'd be hard-pressed to find a better catalyst then the South China Sea.


The missiles will end up about a hundred kilometers shy of their target, a testament to Chinese quality.
Kintor 
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Posted 5/11/16 , edited 5/11/16

D4nc3Style wrote:

The missiles will end up about a hundred kilometers shy of their target, a testament to Chinese quality.

You're laughing now but it's USA military technology powering that Chinese missile. I suppose it's fitting, China has already destroyed the American manufacturing industry, making a mockery of the USA's military industrial complex is just the next logical step.


redokami wrote:

what is your profile pic? I haven't seen you in the threads before

Thanks for asking - my profile picture is a Death Mask, as worn by the Sanguinary Guard of the Blood Angels space marine chapter from Warhammer 40,000.

Here's what the Death Mask looks like on a complete suit of Sanguinary Guard power armour:



Note: The wings are purely ornate. Flight is achieved through the use of a Jump Pack on the back of the armour.
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Posted 5/11/16
Are you not concerned that two nuclear powers are deliberately provoking each other? I would be building my underground bunker right now.... ....
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Posted 5/11/16

goodman528 wrote:

Are you not concerned that two nuclear powers are deliberately provoking each other? I would be building my underground bunker right now.... ....


i know right? put that with, N korea has now stated it wont attack unless provoked or is threatened
well , when we still had jeb bush on the stage every single republican -including trump- stated they will blow up N koreas missile launchers,
if that isn't provoking idk what the fuck is

I don't like either Hillary or trump, but please, I don't want us being nuked so at least give us 4 more years before a republican comes into the white house
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Posted 5/11/16


https://youtu.be/JGXDQ3iLsRw

All I could think of, I dunno why
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Posted 5/11/16

redokami wrote:


goodman528 wrote:

Are you not concerned that two nuclear powers are deliberately provoking each other? I would be building my underground bunker right now.... ....


i know right? put that with, N korea has now stated it wont attack unless provoked or is threatened
well , when we still had jeb bush on the stage every single republican -including trump- stated they will blow up N koreas missile launchers,
if that isn't provoking idk what the fuck is

I don't like either Hillary or trump, but please, I don't want us being nuked so at least give us 4 more years before a republican comes into the white house


Oh, by all means, we need to ensure the north koreans actually finish developing their miniaturized nuclear warheads and delivery systems before we actually *do* anything about them; it would be such a shame if we acted before they had actually conducted a *successful* nuclear detonation or developed re-entry vehicles.
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Posted 5/11/16

Rujikin wrote:

"A Chinese claimed reef" The Chinese are really grasping at sticks right now.



That kinda of surprised me, because China usually only want their land back which they already got back from Britain. Back in 1800 Britain do trading with China, and selling them Opium and than bullying them by taking their land.

I just don't see China taking other country land.. Since they're already having problem with their own! XD Massive internal debts!

Also I just don't see US and China will go over major war just for reef.. :p They're just flexing their muscle saying they're not to be bullied ever again (China).

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Posted 5/11/16

redokami wrote:


goodman528 wrote:

Are you not concerned that two nuclear powers are deliberately provoking each other? I would be building my underground bunker right now.... ....


i know right? put that with, N korea has now stated it wont attack unless provoked or is threatened
well , when we still had jeb bush on the stage every single republican -including trump- stated they will blow up N koreas missile launchers,
if that isn't provoking idk what the fuck is

I don't like either Hillary or trump, but please, I don't want us being nuked so at least give us 4 more years before a republican comes into the white house



Yea. I don't like Hillary, she is a career liar who supports whatever position will get her the most money and votes at that moment in time. She was against gay marriage, now she is for it. She was for Iraq war, now she is against it. She said there was no problems with her E-mails at the state department, now we learn she was using her own E-mail servers for government affairs. Her entire position on racism and sexism is that we should talk about it more, while not giving a single concrete proposal for closing the education gap (between black and white kids) nor closing the wage gap (between men and women). And Hillary supporters will call you sexist just for point out the truth. Some things are not a matter of opinion, there is actual voting records of her time as a senator, actual TV interviews from back in the 90s, but none of the facts matter, what she says now is true and must have always been true, because she is Hillary Clinton with billions of $$$ of wall street money to brainwash people.

However, she is not Trump. In the words of Donald Trump, he doesn't know what the US nuclear deterrent is, but he thinks it is great, it is the greatest in the world, and he wouldn't rule out the use of nuclear weapons against Europe, or anywhere else in the world... ...

Nuclear weapons don't grab headlines anymore unlike during the cold war, but the last round of nuclear weapons reduction talks was back in the 1980s between Reagan and Gorbachev. There are still tens of thousands of missiles stockpiled, more than enough to destroy every city on earth, and block out the sun for many years of nuclear winter. The last pacific war lasted 3 and half years, if there is a new war it would last about 35 minutes.
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Posted 5/11/16

Laura_Bodewig wrote:

They're going to force Donald Trump on us :^)


That's a war crime
qwueri 
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Posted 5/11/16 , edited 5/11/16

goodman528 wrote:

Are you not concerned that two nuclear powers are deliberately provoking each other? I would be building my underground bunker right now.... ....


If those sort of maneuvers weren't routine I'd be more concerned. Power grabs like Russia annexing part of Ukraine is another matter entirely.
Ronxz 
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Posted 5/11/16
China's navy isn't anything to laugh at. They have spent a massive amount of money upgrade and modernize their naval forces in recent years. Sadly, for them, their blue water fleet isn't near powerful enough to take on the Pacific Fleet and won't be for decades (unless the U.S. decides to let their military go to hell). As for all the 'cloaked' fleet killing torpedoes and hackers China has?

Let me explain something about the U.S.'s defense budget. Most of it is in Research and Development. Example: We had drones over a decade before we used them in Iraq. We just didn't show them or test them until then. We have so much tech that's being developed its unreal and most of it's sitting under a mountain safe and sound until we need to produce it en mass. Another example are the railguns which will decimate the Chinese navy from miles and miles away without even getting close. The thing is we simply don't need these weapons because no one has anything to fight us with. the F-22, as much as everyone bitches about it, has been shown to be capable of taking down Chinese and Russian fighters from over 6 miles away without even being seen.

Sorry China but barking about your territory in an attempt to flex geopolitical muscle isn't nearly as useful when 1) the law isn't on your side and 2) the country your barking at can blow you away.

This doesn't even take into account the feeling of the Chinese people who are strained under a communist regime and the protests which have been taking place with increasing frequency and the potential mass rebellion that might rise up if those millions and millions of people felt they could take advantage of a weakening in the Chinese military power or backing by a foreign power that was willing to help them militarize to fight back. Just saying....
gsm642 
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Posted 5/11/16
man I hope I don't get beat up or stabbed because of crazy shit like this I am moving to shanghai in the fall and it really irks me when I see stuff on the news
Ronxz 
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Posted 5/11/16

JanusCascade wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

"A Chinese claimed reef" The Chinese are really grasping at sticks right now.



That kinda of surprised me, because China usually only want their land back which they already got back from Britain. Back in 1800 Britain do trading with China, and selling them Opium and than bullying them by taking their land.

I just don't see China taking other country land.. Since they're already having problem with their own! XD Massive internal debts!

Also I just don't see US and China will go over major war just for reef.. :p They're just flexing their muscle saying they're not to be bullied ever again (China).



This is not about being 'bullied' by other countries. China has in recent years claimed a substantial portion of territory also claimed by countries including Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea. What they have done is taken those 'reefs' that you think are so meaningless and then poured concrete over them to build installations on top of. This is their way to expand their own land and military reach into areas of ocean that is considered either international territory or already claimed by other nations. Slow expansion such as this is very similar to what Nazi Germany did when they first started out. They first claimed they wanted a small portion of land that was originally theirs, got it back. Then they claimed other portions and moved their troops in, and to appease them they were given that land (Anyone remember the Czechoslovakia?) which immediately increased their military power by approximately 40%.

This is about power expansion, plain and simple. The British didn't bully anyone, they did what was best for their country at the expense of another, something every nation does. This is about China's move to become a regional power in Asia and to expand their military might, thus the reason they now have the largest military in the world. Learn from history or you are doomed to repeat it. China has made it very clear if the U.S. were to pull out of the region they WOULD attack and conquer Taiwan immediately. Then they would immediately attack and conquer Japan. Continuing outward. Japan has also said if the U.S. pulls out they will immediately go nuclear and point every warhead at China to protect themselves. The U.S. is actually a stabilizing force in the region that would otherwise be extremely volatile thanks to the number of regional powers that would all want to become dominant. The Chinese are the ones being unnecessarily aggressive, particularly since they are infringing on international waters and previously claimed territory.

The Chinese are not some victim here.
Kintor 
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Posted 5/11/16 , edited 5/11/16

Ronxz wrote:

This is not about being 'bullied' by other countries. China has in recent years claimed a substantial portion of territory also claimed by countries including Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea. What they have done is taken those 'reefs' that you think are so meaningless and then poured concrete over them to build installations on top of. This is their way to expand their own land and military reach into areas of ocean that is considered either international territory or already claimed by other nations. Slow expansion such as this is very similar to what Nazi Germany did when they first started out. They first claimed they wanted a small portion of land that was originally theirs, got it back. Then they claimed other portions and moved their troops in, and to appease them they were given that land (Anyone remember the Czechoslovakia?) which immediately increased their military power by approximately 40%.

This is about power expansion, plain and simple. The British didn't bully anyone, they did what was best for their country at the expense of another, something every nation does. This is about China's move to become a regional power in Asia and to expand their military might, thus the reason they now have the largest military in the world. Learn from history or you are doomed to repeat it. China has made it very clear if the U.S. were to pull out of the region they WOULD attack and conquer Taiwan immediately. Then they would immediately attack and conquer Japan. Continuing outward. Japan has also said if the U.S. pulls out they will immediately go nuclear and point every warhead at China to protect themselves. The U.S. is actually a stabilizing force in the region that would otherwise be extremely volatile thanks to the number of regional powers that would all want to become dominant. The Chinese are the ones being unnecessarily aggressive, particularly since they are infringing on international waters and previously claimed territory.

The Chinese are not some victim here.

There's no denying that China is being aggressive in the Pacific. With that said, the direct comparison comparing China to Nazi Germany is a little overdone. All great powers seek to expand their power in a region, often by using military force to conquer new territory. This is as true to today as it ever was thousands of years ago, long before Nazi Germany ever made its unwelcome mark upon the world.

To that end, while China may have been historically a fairly insular nation, content to defend its territory with a vast wall along its northern border. People tend to forget that China only achieved that relative internal stability after numerous wars of conquest, when the first Emperor of China, leader of the state of Qin, conquer all the surrounding kingdoms in one of the most successful wars of unification that the world has ever seen.

Today, China's actions are also understandable in this light, this need to conquer more territory in order to achieve greater security and internal stability. Besides the abundant natural resources of the South China Sea (which is a nice bonus) the primary objective of the Chinese government is probably to create a sort of buffer zone between mainland China and its rivals in the Pacific. The presence of these military installations will make it that much harder for anyone to attack China directly, a wise move on the part of the Chinese even if such plans do risk provoking a full-scale war with the USA.

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