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Post Reply The confusion of feminism
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Posted 5/16/16 , edited 5/16/16

runec wrote:


maxgale wrote:
From the Pew Research Center?

They even show their methodology if you desire to dispute it.


The methodology isn't the problem, its you cutting it out of context that is the problem. -.-

Seeing as the study you're citing also has the following snippets:


Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population.

Indeed, the survey finds that support for making sharia the law of the land is often higher in countries where the constitution or basic laws already favor Islam over other religions. By comparison, in countries where Islam is not legally favored, roughly a third or fewer Muslims say sharia should be the law of the land.

The survey finds that religious devotion also shapes attitudes toward sharia. In many countries, Muslims with higher levels of religious commitment are more likely to support sharia.

Similarly, the survey finds no consistent link between support for enshrining sharia as official law and attitudes toward religiously motivated violence.





So you are saying in countries where Islam is the official religion there is more support for it? Not surprising.


What IS surprising is that in countries where it isn't the official religion, ONE THIRD still want it to be made the official law of the land.


Furthermore, it's funny you quote how there is "no consistent link" between support for sharia and attitudes towards religiously motivated violence.


I guess Pew didn't consider cutting off the hands of thieves and stoning adulterers to death as in accordance to religious law to be motivated by the religion itself those laws are part of.....










runec wrote:



As for being "incompatible with western society" as you put it:




Most Muslims are comfortable practicing their faith in the contemporary world. Relatively few feel there is an inherent conflict between being religiously devout and living in a modern society, and the prevailing view in most countries surveyed is that there is no inherent conflict between religion and science.



American Muslims are even more likely than Muslims in other countries to firmly reject violence in the name of Islam.


Although it seems American culture is actually having a negative effect as well:


However, American Muslims are somewhat less likely to believe in evolution than are Muslims in other parts of the world (45% vs. global median of 53%). Indeed, when it comes to evolution, U.S. Muslims are closer to U.S. Christians (46% of whom say they believe in evolution) than they are to fellow Muslims elsewhere in the world.


TL;DR religious conservatives in conservative countries are conservative. If you think you're going to see any wildly different notions when you look at Christian conservatives in the US you're kidding yourself. In fact the US is the only nation bucking religious trends:





So congrats on being religiously ass backwards!

Context is fun, isn't it?



About that........





Among those who want sharia to be the law of the land, in 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis at least half say they support penalties such as whippings or cutting off the hands of thieves and robbers.17 In South Asia, Pakistani and Afghan Muslims clearly support hudud punishments [apostasy]. In both countries, more than eight-in-ten Muslims who favor making sharia the official law of the land also back these types of penalties for theft and robbery (88% in Pakistan and 81% in Afghanistan). By contrast, only half of Bangladeshis who favor sharia as the law of the land share this view.

In the Middle East and North Africa, many Muslims who support making sharia the official law also favor punishments like cutting off the hands of thieves. This includes at least seven-in-ten in the Palestinian territories (76%) and Egypt (70%), and at least half in Jordan (57%), Iraq (56%) and Lebanon (50%). Only in Tunisia do fewer than half (44%) of those who want Islamic law as the law of the land also back these types of criminal penalties. [...]

In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses.18

Some of the highest support for stoning is found in South Asia and the Middle East-North Africa region. In Pakistan (89%) and Afghanistan (85%), more than eight-in-ten Muslims who want Islamic law as their country’s official law say adulterers should be stoned, while nearly as many say the same in the Palestinian territories (84%) and Egypt (81%). A majority also support stoning as a penalty for the unfaithful in Jordan (67%), Iraq (58%). However, support is significantly lower in Lebanon (46%) and Tunisia (44%), where less than half of those who support sharia as the official law of the land believe that adulterers should be stoned.





By all means.


Tell me how that is compatible with Western society.


Of course, as someone as ass-backwards as yourself, you apparently have no problem bashing the religion of "love thy neighbor" while white knighting the one that stones women to death for being raped.



By all means, tell me how when the vast majority say they want sharia to be the law of the land, they mean anything other than the law of the land for EVERYONE.







In South Asia, high percentages in all the countries surveyed support making sharia the official law, including nearly universal support among Muslims in Afghanistan (99%). More than eight-in-ten Muslims in Pakistan (84%) and Bangladesh (82%) also hold this view. The percentage of Muslims who say they favor making Islamic law the official law in their country is nearly as high across the Southeast Asian countries surveyed (86% in Malaysia, 77% in Thailand and 72% in Indonesia).

In sub-Saharan Africa, at least half of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they favor making sharia the official law of the land, including more than seven-in-ten in Niger (86%), Djibouti (82%), the Democratic Republic of the Congo (74%) and Nigeria (71%).

Support for sharia as the official law of the land also is widespread among Muslims in the Middle East-North Africa region – especially in Iraq (91%) and the Palestinian territories (89%). Only in Lebanon does opinion lean in the opposite direction: 29% of Lebanese Muslims favor making sharia the law of the land, while 66% oppose it.




Please tell me how when the vast majority say it is bad that their country's laws don't follow shariah that they mean it as anything other than being imposed on their neighbors as well:






Please tell me how people who believe one should be murdered for leaving their cult is compatible with Western society:





Don't rush, it's okay if you need to warm up before performing your mental gymnastics.
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Posted 5/16/16
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Posted 5/16/16 , edited 5/18/16

PrinceJudar wrote:


runec wrote:






That sick burn.



Can Max make a comeback from that? Probably going to need a different angle. That one just got shredded.



Considering it took all of ten seconds to obliterate his falsehoods.......
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Posted 5/16/16

maxgale wrote:
Considering it took all of ten seconds to obliterate his falsehoods.......


I'mma just watch you guys go at this one.


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Posted 5/16/16 , edited 5/16/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I want to kill Maxgale. Seriously. That is all. I could go into nastier detail but that would be rulebreaking.




That's like, totes not creepy or anything.



Death threats aren't kawaii, ototo.
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Posted 5/16/16

maxgale wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I want to kill Maxgale. Seriously. That is all. I could go into nastier detail but that would be rulebreaking.




That's like, totes not creepy or anything.



Death threats aren't kawaii, ototo.


I'm sorry, I lost composure. I will delete it, now that it has been received.
Posted 5/16/16
waiting for the the thread to unwind
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Posted 5/16/16
Simple humanitarianism is looking like a lot more all-encompassing and appealing ideal nowadays...
runec 
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Posted 5/16/16 , edited 5/18/16

maxgale wrote:
What IS surprising is that in countries where it isn't the official religion, ONE THIRD still want it to be made the official law of the land.


Right, and one third of Americans want Christianity to be the official religion of the US. Including 57% of Republicans. What's your point?

Religious conservatives gonna conserve religiously.



I guess Pew didn't consider cutting off the hands of thieves and stoning adulterers to death as in accordance to religious law to be motivated by the religion itself those laws are part of.....


So now you're against Pew's methodology? -.-

Also, 32 of 50 states have the death penalty ( Despite how horrifically inhumane its become lately as they experiment with new lethal drugs ) and several states have statues on the books that allow it to be utilized for crimes aside from murder if they so wish.

Adultery is still technically illegal some states and at least a quarter ( though some polls show up to a third ) of Americans still think it should be illegal.

Lets not pretend America is some sort of progressive utopia of universal love.




maxgale wrote:Of course, as someone as ass-backwards as yourself, you apparently have no problem bashing the religion of "love thy neighbor" while white knighting the one that stones women to death for being raped.


The religion of "love thy neighbour" has been causing unending misery and suffering in American society for decades. Not a year goes by where there isn't some level of insanely backwards bullshit somewhere in the country if not being shoved into state laws. It is literally kicking and screaming and trying to take everyone down with it as it slowly gets dragged into modern society.

One religion's assholes and extremists aren't really any better than another's. They're *all* assholes regardless of the book they base their assholery on. So unless you're prepared to condemn Christianity to the same extent for its assholes you need to stop pretending they smell any better than anyone else's assholes.



By all means, tell me how when the vast majority say they want sharia to be the law of the land, they mean anything other than the law of the land for EVERYONE.


So, again, Pew's research is no longer good enough for you but at the same time is the cornerstone of your argument?



maxgale wrote:
Don't rush, it's okay if you need to warm up before performing your mental gymnastics.


No thanks, I'll just stay up here in the bleachers. After all, I wouldn't stand a chance against a gold medalist.


runec 
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Posted 5/16/16 , edited 5/18/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:
I'm sorry, I lost composure. I will delete it, now that it has been received.


Perfectly understandable. ;p

I've already made the mistake of wrestling with the pig in the mud. We both get dirty and the pig likes it.

We all know its futile but sometimes its just so god damn stupid its hard not to smack it. >.>





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Posted 5/16/16
I'd just like to point out where this conversation started real quick:

"The vast majority of Muslims are moderat pious people who suffer more from terrorism and violence than non-Muslims. Ninety.three percent of Muslims do not support extremist views of terrorism. you people should read more"

I'd say the only area of that comment that any of the evidence Max has posted has even related to is the word "Moderate", but that is a pretty subjective term. So what exactly are you guys trying to argue here?
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Posted 5/16/16 , edited 5/16/16

runec wrote:


maxgale wrote:
What IS surprising is that in countries where it isn't the official religion, ONE THIRD still want it to be made the official law of the land.


Right, and one third of Americans want Christianity to be the official religion of the US. Including 57% of Republicans. What's your point?

Religious conservatives gonna conserve religiously.



I guess Pew didn't consider cutting off the hands of thieves and stoning adulterers to death as in accordance to religious law to be motivated by the religion itself those laws are part of.....


So now you're against Pew's methodology? -.-





Christianity is the official religion of the country already. However, it is a faith that allows for government to do it's own thing. "Render unto Caesar" and all that.

Not against their methodology, just wondering about the disparity between reporting attitudes backing religious violence and then claiming that those attitudes don't count as religious violence. More of a question of if by "religious violence" they only meant "terrorist actions against other States."



runec wrote:


Also, 32 of 50 states have the death penalty ( Despite how horrifically inhumane its become lately as they experiment with new lethal drugs ) and several states have statues on the books that allow it to be utilized for crimes aside from murder if they so wish.



They need to find new drugs because people who hold the view that it's "inhumane" demand they do so.....


Catch-22.


runec wrote:


Adultery is still technically illegal some states and at least a quarter ( though some polls show up to a third ) of Americans still think it should be illegal.




......And yet I don't think any of those states claim it should involve people being stoned to death for it.




runec wrote:

Lets not pretend America is some sort of progressive utopia of universal love.




Because we don't believe in adultery yet refuse to stone people to death over it?




runec wrote:



maxgale wrote:Of course, as someone as ass-backwards as yourself, you apparently have no problem bashing the religion of "love thy neighbor" while white knighting the one that stones women to death for being raped.


The religion of "love thy neighbour" has been causing unending misery and suffering in American society for decades. Not a year goes by where there isn't some level of insanely backwards bullshit somewhere in the country if not being shoved into state laws. It is literally kicking and screaming and trying to take everyone down with it as it slowly gets dragged into modern society.

One religion's assholes and extremists aren't really any better than another's. They're *all* assholes regardless of the book they base their assholery on. So unless you're prepared to condemn Christianity to the same extent for its assholes you need to stop pretending they smell any better than anyone else's assholes.




Examples of what you are talking about would be nice.




runec wrote:


maxgale wrote:


By all means, tell me how when the vast majority say they want sharia to be the law of the land, they mean anything other than the law of the land for EVERYONE.


So, again, Pew's research is no longer good enough for you but at the same time is the cornerstone of your argument?






No, I think it's fine.


But when someone says they believe in something 9 / 10 times, which are you willing to say is what they really believe? When they say it the nine times or the one?






runec wrote:


maxgale wrote:
Don't rush, it's okay if you need to warm up before performing your mental gymnastics.


No thanks, I'll just stay up here in the bleachers. After all, I wouldn't stand a chance against a gold medalist.






What do you mean?


The only liberal giving their argument is you, there's no competition for the prize.





sundin13 wrote:

I'd just like to point out where this conversation started real quick:

"The vast majority of Muslims are moderat pious people who suffer more from terrorism and violence than non-Muslims. Ninety.three percent of Muslims do not support extremist views of terrorism. you people should read more"

I'd say the only area of that comment that any of the evidence Max has posted has even related to is the word "Moderate", but that is a pretty subjective term. So what exactly are you guys trying to argue here?




That the "moderate" elements of the religion are extreme by any measure other than their own.
runec 
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Posted 5/16/16

maxgale wrote:
Christianity is the official religion of the country already. However, it is a faith that allows for government to do it's own thing.


....That'll do, pig. That'll do.

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Posted 5/16/16
Okay, Max has told me what he is arguing about. I think while his argument is a bit messy and haphazard and not focused well at all, the idea that sharia law is more extreme than western law is hard to deny.

Runec, what is the point you are trying to make?
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Posted 5/16/16

maxgale wrote:

Christianity is the official religion of the country already.


Which one?
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