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What's the Point Of Debates Here?
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Posted 5/25/16 , edited 5/25/16
To: SportingNightRai.

Its called medieval marginalia.
Monks doodled some really weird things in their scriptures.

Exact source: Smithfield Decretals.
Posted 5/25/16

bobsagget wrote:



What's the point of talking in general?



I agree let people have there own opinions geesh I like the gifs on this one Bob hope you don't mind
I quoted you..
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Posted 5/25/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I guess you're right Prince. It sounds like my opening post aimed to humiliate people into submission, when I wanted people to merely acknowledge the facts. I'm sorry, is my opening post more clear now?


Indeed. I think a lot of your frustration, and many similar, is you aren't really factoring in human nature. No person is immune to it. Human nature should be expected of others and realized within ourselves. Life is generously meaningless. If one expects others and ourselves to be human--then it becomes much easier to accept other people and the flaws in our own character (more comprehensible, but not necessarily reasonable). If you expect people to reason or argue similar you will often cater to your own state of disappointment and annoyance. Why bother with that? It is better to concern yourself less with the reasoning of others and more towards improving your own.


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Posted 5/25/16 , edited 5/25/16
If you're talking SPECIFICALLY CR, about 80-90% here are at that particular age where the one thing you think is "deep" because you just happened to figure it out is now a groundbreaking philosophy that will change the punishing thinking of an earlier generation.
Only to find out from said earlier generation that you probably should have done a little more fact-checking and research first.

Remember, these will always be known as your Wrong Years--It's a valuable time to be as Wrong as possible, as long as you have someone to make you aware of it, in detail, and why.
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Posted 5/25/16 , edited 5/25/16

Ejanss wrote:

If you're talking SPECIFICALLY CR, about 80-90% here are at that particular age where the one thing you think is "deep" because you just happened to figure it out is now a groundbreaking philosophy that will change the punishing thinking of an earlier generation.
Only to find out from said earlier generation that you probably should have done a little more fact-checking and research first.

Remember, these will always be known as your Wrong Years--It's a valuable time to be as Wrong as possible, as long as you have someone to make you aware of it, in detail, and why.


I don't see it much of a generational thing. I don't recall a majority of people ever being invested in empirical facts and research. People are convinced more often by clever rhetoric for a reason--that hasn't changed, the rhetoric has.

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Posted 5/25/16
I can't do the whole debate thing. That requires work and smarts.
I have a argument against arguing when people are arguing too much on this site and it's getting on my nerves.
I remind them that they're on an anime streaming website and that nobody really wins an internet argument. I know it's not always about winning but their are certain people and I wont name names who give off the impression that they NEED to win. I also use the argument that instead of putting in an effort to argue you could probably try and do something about it. We're all so quick to speak but I doubt we all care enough to actively do anything about certain issues.
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Posted 5/25/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


I acknowledge many facts. For example, Maxgale's post about John Hopkins refusing transgender treatment, I acknowledged that and believed for a while that sex reassignment may not be the right option for a great deal of people. I've revised my definition of bigot after hearing HolyDrumstick's argument that he is not a bigot for his stance on the separation of church and state to the point he is pro gay marriage despite his religious beliefs. Other times? I'm not merely convinced.

I also aknowledge some ugly truths, such as the abuse rampant in the LGBT community by LGBT community, and to an extent, race realism (which honestly seems a mixture of chance, genetics, environment, but oh so true.)

I never participated in gun rights thread because honestly, the results seems to be in favor of guns and it took some time for me to accept that maybe VZ68 has a point.


I've always taken a different view than the one you're looking at (not necessarily on the issues but on the look at the grand scheme of things). I've never seen the issue talks here as "debates" but "discussions". While debates are all about trying to change people's ways of thinking, discussions are merely letting your feelings be known (including the why). Both sides learn from a discussion and neither can actually be wrong considering they're operating mostly on opinion and not fact. Sure we can throw facts into these opinions but with the lack of bias (or in some cases validity) of "facts" in today's day and age who is to say someone is ever 100% wrong? The most I can ever say is 99.99% but that still leaves room for error because we're human; and for years people have claimed computers could never be wrong but the very fact they're programmed BY HUMANS adds that chance of error. It's why once a situation begins to get out of hand I "agree to disagree" and walk away. Even if I believe what I'm saying the person I'm discussing with has that same right and who am I to bully them into changing their views for me (not saying you do that, I actually respect you as a poster and enjoy reading your threads).
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Posted 5/25/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

No one changes their mind except me. And I don't recall the last time someone apologized or aknowledged for getting something wrong besides me.


On your high horse, bro?

Well, perhaps this is something you can learn from, as well. People have agendas and it's more important to them to push their agenda than to have an intellectual conversation.

People also have pride, so it's useful to be very diplomatic in debates so that they feel comfortable changing their mind without feeling like they've been embarrassed. For instance, I shouldn't say you're on your high horse, because it'll put you on the defensive and you won't want to acknowledge what I'm saying. I should instead say something like you're absolutely right about how we have a debate culture that emphasizes rivalry and winning/losing over learning and broadening our minds. You probably feel much better about listening to what I have to say after I reassure you that your complaint is justified rather than rude/arrogant, right? You may have even stopped reading on the first line, actually.

It seems you're mostly complaining about the people with agendas, though. You can try being diplomatic, but it usually doesn't work in that case. Politicians have agendas like getting elected. They're probably not going to start agreeing with their rivals. Defense attorneys have agendas like winning their case, so they're probably not going to start agreeing with the prosecution. Friends have agendas like maintaining good relationships, so they're probably not going to side against each other. People with agendas simply won't be moved from their position because of a bias they hold.

However, there's really nothing wrong with having an agenda. No reason to resent someone for it. Everyone has biases and I wouldn't trust you at all if you weren't biased in some way toward your friends, family, and clients. If you just really crave an intellectual, objective debate that actually reaches some sort of correct answer and conclusion, then you really need to be speaking to some pretty specific people. Someone like BlueOni. Actually, I guess she'd be the one changing your mind every time with all her extensive research, so that won't work. Damn, what a problem. Too smart and they're always right. Too dumb and they never admit they're wrong. I think we're just going to have to enjoy life some other way.
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Posted 5/25/16 , edited 5/25/16

Kavalion wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

No one changes their mind except me. And I don't recall the last time someone apologized or aknowledged for getting something wrong besides me.


On your high horse, bro?

Well, perhaps this is something you can learn from, as well. People have agendas and it's more important to them to push their agenda than to have an intellectual conversation.

People also have pride, so it's useful to be very diplomatic in debates so that they feel comfortable changing their mind without feeling like they've been embarrassed. For instance, I shouldn't say you're on your high horse, because it'll put you on the defensive and you won't want to acknowledge what I'm saying. I should instead say something like you're absolutely right about how we have a debate culture that emphasizes rivalry and winning/losing over learning and broadening our minds. You probably feel much better about listening to what I have to say after I reassure you that your complaint is justified rather than rude/arrogant, right? You may have even stopped reading on the first line, actually.

It seems you're mostly complaining about the people with agendas, though. You can try being diplomatic, but it usually doesn't work in that case. Politicians have agendas like getting elected. They're probably not going to start agreeing with their rivals. Defense attorneys have agendas like winning their case, so they're probably not going to start agreeing with the prosecution. Friends have agendas like maintaining good relationships, so they're probably not going to side against each other. People with agendas simply won't be moved from their position because of a bias they hold.

However, there's really nothing wrong with having an agenda. No reason to resent someone for it. Everyone has biases and I wouldn't trust you at all if you weren't biased in some way toward your friends, family, and clients. If you just really crave an intellectual, objective debate that actually reaches some sort of correct answer and conclusion, then you really need to be speaking to some pretty specific people. Someone like BlueOni. Actually, I guess she'd be the one changing your mind every time with all her extensive research, so that won't work. Damn, what a problem. Too smart and they're always right. Too dumb and they never admit they're wrong. I think we're just going to have to enjoy life some other way.

I don't mean to be on the high horse, but I've yet to see someone acknowledge they're wrong for the most part, except maybe PrinceJudar and certain other people over trifling manners. I've always acknowledged my shortcomings, yet it appears this does not offer succor for other to admit their mistakes as well. I won't let a petty thing like accusations of being on a high horse prevent me from calling other people out on their BS. Hell, why do I have to mince words?
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Posted 5/25/16 , edited 5/25/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:
I don't mean to be on the high horse, but I've yet to see someone acknowledge they're wrong for the most part, except maybe PrinceJudar and certain other people over trifling manners. I've always acknowledged my shortcomings, yet it appears this does not offer succor for other to admit their mistakes as well. I won't let a petty thing like accusations of being on a high horse prevent me from calling other people out on their BS. Hell, why do I have to mince words?


I rarely admit to being wrong, but on those rare occasions I am, I take it as part of the general process of conversation, make some pleasant Johnny Carson-like "I...did not know that" comment, and work the new information into the continuing flow of the discussion.

Being wrong is a valuable learning experience (it removes one more instance that you might potentially make a fool of yourself in the future), and that's why exchanging facts exist--It's said that the Sumtotal of Mankind's Knowledge doubled in the first thousand years with the formation of society, shortened to five hundred years with the printed word, and that mass communication and computers have made the next cycle even shorter.
That's why it's so important not to be Wrong, squash Wrongness wherever it shows up in public, and quickly administer self-cures if you display any symptoms yourself. We can end the disease in our lifetime.
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Posted 5/25/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:
I don't mean to be on the high horse, but I've yet to see someone acknowledge they're wrong for the most part, except maybe PrinceJudar and certain other people over trifling manners. I've always acknowledged my shortcomings, yet it appears this does not offer succor for other to admit their mistakes as well. I won't let a petty thing like accusations of being on a high horse prevent me from calling other people out on their BS. Hell, why do I have to mince words?


You don't have to mince words, it's just a tactic.

I mean, I don't mince my words and I just get told I'm making petty accusations. Productive discussion, eh?

Well, 'tis YE who makes petty accusations about others not admitting their mistakes! Intellectual debate, here we come.
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Posted 5/25/16

PrinceJudar wrote: I don't recall a majority of people ever being invested in empirical facts and research. People are convinced more often by clever rhetoric for a reason--that hasn't changed, the rhetoric has.
maybe because so much data and different data is acquired through some means and much could change or have "no value" atleast for some of the things they want to know.
Maybe the right or wrong ones?
What people, what location, what...etc..etc..etc.
in the underground these people would think like that and do these things.
In a wealthy home and that neighbor hood crime or ideas/cults are easier to go around/create and destroy things (leading to "racist" or stupid cops or that the cops have becomed stupid by the events that happends there or what they think of most of the things they deal with, events and situations that shouldn't have happend and by what reason)
But its nice to combine some to give a general view over something if said data was "correct" as much could be left out.
Statistic's on some of the things we can have "real" data on would be easier to say is right from how many sales of this or that under that time from the company who created said products and such insted of ideas and things that isn't there.

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Posted 5/25/16 , edited 5/25/16

Kavalion wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:
I don't mean to be on the high horse, but I've yet to see someone acknowledge they're wrong for the most part, except maybe PrinceJudar and certain other people over trifling manners. I've always acknowledged my shortcomings, yet it appears this does not offer succor for other to admit their mistakes as well. I won't let a petty thing like accusations of being on a high horse prevent me from calling other people out on their BS. Hell, why do I have to mince words?


You don't have to mince words, it's just a tactic.

I mean, I don't mince my words and I just get told I'm making petty accusations. Productive discussion, eh?

Well, 'tis YE who makes petty accusations about others not admitting their mistakes! Intellectual debate, here we come.


I consider it petty because I don't see how it fits in the discussion other than an attack on my character. A bit of tu quoque as I see it mixed with ad hominem.

To me, it felt like you're just calling me out on it just to shut me up or something, when in the end, it is essentially "yeah? so what?"


Edit: I should apologize. I offended you by calling said accusation petty. I'm sorry. I should've used better wording.
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Posted 5/25/16
Of course they're not going to change their minds.

Doesn't mean I couldn't show them there are some potential problems with what they're saying.
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Posted 5/25/16
Debates stimulate the brain. If it is an issue you have never thought about you can establish a position. If it is something you feel you already know you can state and defend your position. When your wrong changing your mind is tough and for some impossible lol. When in debate you find that your not really debating those you're in front of, it is more trying to cause them embarrassment for holding a wrong position. You are trying, not to change the mind of someone who is wrong, but to show those who are still deciding not to be as ignorant as the person you are debating. Therefore insult idiocy to deter the making of future idiots (not calling anyone here an idiot). It's really a bit of both, sometimes you can change someone's mind, but the main point is to deter and influence the future.
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