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Post Reply Jo Cox: An attack on Democracy
runec 
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Posted 6/18/16


Dear lord.

Yep, no political motivations there and he totally didn't yell "Britain First". ><




MysticGon wrote:
Why would a Brexit supporter kill an pro-EU MP when his side has a clear edge in the polls and has momentum. Sounds sketchy as fuck.


So what then? This is an elaborate false flag operation? That's totally more believable. ;p
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runec wrote:


DazaiShinju wrote:
What I've been trying to do (although it feels more like running headfirst into a wall) is to explain that your question in the first place is absurd - not least because your analogy doesn't work.


Turn back! It's not too late to save yourself.


I can't! It's like I'm a masochist.


gornotck wrote:

It is too late. She's fallen into a Maxgale vortex. She is trapped in his cyclonic area of devastation. Never able to see eye to eye, this thread will continue to grow and grow..


I know it is folly. I'm probably too optimistic. I don't know what I expected when I posted this thread, but I absolutely should have foreseen an angry American defending... Britain First? Is that what's happening here? I don't even think he knows.




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geauxtigers1989 wrote:

There's some updated information.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/18/europe/jo-cox-suspect-tommy-mair-court/index.html

Looks he may have had interests in right-wing extremist and white supremacist groups.


If he yelled Britain First, almost certainly.


MysticGon wrote:

Why would a Brexit supporter kill an pro-EU MP when his side has a clear edge in the polls and has momentum. Sounds sketchy as fuck.


The polls mean nothing - the Scottish referendum polls were misleading and they frequently are. BF & it's ilk falsify statistics, exaggerate facts when it suits them and censor others - then there's the outright scaremongering. Most of their members aren't the brightest bulbs in the box to begin with, but it is totally feasible that someone with mental health issues could become very drawn into their line. I'm not defending the guy, just to clarify.

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Posted 6/18/16

DazaiShinju wrote:


maxgale wrote:


DazaiShinju wrote:


maxgale wrote:

Still hasn't answered the question.


Still hasn't grasped that I'm in the midst of answering it, or most likely is stalling.






Still hasn't answered it!


"In the midst of answering it?"


It's a simple question:


"If someone goes on a rampage because they say, 'Elmo told me to do it,' do we blame Sesame Street? Yes or no?"



What I've been trying to do (although it feels more like running headfirst into a wall) is to explain that your question in the first place is absurd - not least because your analogy doesn't work.
No single individual has been implicated as 'Elmo', but I'll run with your (laughable) use of 'Sesame Street' to represent any given organisation.
'Britain First' didn't tell the gunman to shoot anymore than 'Islam' told the Orlando shooter to kill 49 people.






"Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them, and blockade them, and watch for them at every lookout..." (Quran 9:5)


"Strike terror into God's enemies, and your enemies" (Koran 8.60)"



"Those who make war against God and his apostle . . . shall be put to death or crucified" (Koran 5.33)








DazaiShinju wrote:


Yet 'Britain First' blame Muslims for crimes committed in the name of 'Islam', but refuse to accept any portion of responsibility for crimes committed in their name.



Because they have not advocated slaughter.



Islam does.


DazaiShinju wrote:


The difference here is, that Britain First are all extremists,



Citation needed.



DazaiShinju wrote:


whereas all Muslims are not.




"...majorities in most regions say a wife should always obey her husband. Medians of more than eight-in-ten Muslims express this view in Southeast Asia (93%), South Asia (88%), and the Middle East and North Africa (87%). Even in Central Asia, a region characterized by relatively low levels of religious observance and strong support for a woman’s right to decide whether to wear a veil, seven-in-ten Muslims agree that a wife should carry out her husband’s wishes.11 Only in Southern and Eastern Europe do fewer than half (median of 43%) share this view." [Pew Research Center]














"Among those who want sharia to be the law of the land, in 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis at least half say they support penalties such as whippings or cutting off the hands of thieves and robbers.17 In South Asia, Pakistani and Afghan Muslims clearly support hudud punishments [apostasy]. In both countries, more than eight-in-ten Muslims who favor making sharia the official law of the land also back these types of penalties for theft and robbery (88% in Pakistan and 81% in Afghanistan). By contrast, only half of Bangladeshis who favor sharia as the law of the land share this view.

In the Middle East and North Africa, many Muslims who support making sharia the official law also favor punishments like cutting off the hands of thieves. This includes at least seven-in-ten in the Palestinian territories (76%) and Egypt (70%), and at least half in Jordan (57%), Iraq (56%) and Lebanon (50%). Only in Tunisia do fewer than half (44%) of those who want Islamic law as the law of the land also back these types of criminal penalties. [...]

In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses.18

Some of the highest support for stoning is found in South Asia and the Middle East-North Africa region. In Pakistan (89%) and Afghanistan (85%), more than eight-in-ten Muslims who want Islamic law as their country’s official law say adulterers should be stoned, while nearly as many say the same in the Palestinian territories (84%) and Egypt (81%). A majority also support stoning as a penalty for the unfaithful in Jordan (67%), Iraq (58%). However, support is significantly lower in Lebanon (46%) and Tunisia (44%), where less than half of those who support sharia as the official law of the land believe that adulterers should be stoned." [Pew Research Center]










"In South Asia, high percentages in all the countries surveyed support making sharia the official law, including nearly universal support among Muslims in Afghanistan (99%). More than eight-in-ten Muslims in Pakistan (84%) and Bangladesh (82%) also hold this view. The percentage of Muslims who say they favor making Islamic law the official law in their country is nearly as high across the Southeast Asian countries surveyed (86% in Malaysia, 77% in Thailand and 72% in Indonesia).

In sub-Saharan Africa, at least half of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they favor making sharia the official law of the land, including more than seven-in-ten in Niger (86%), Djibouti (82%), the Democratic Republic of the Congo (74%) and Nigeria (71%).

Support for sharia as the official law of the land also is widespread among Muslims in the Middle East-North Africa region – especially in Iraq (91%) and the Palestinian territories (89%). Only in Lebanon does opinion lean in the opposite direction: 29% of Lebanese Muslims favor making sharia the law of the land, while 66% oppose it." [Pew Research Center]















DazaiShinju wrote:


It is barely possible to suggest that you can have any discussion with BF supporters and not hear numerous examples of unchecked hate speech, threats of violence and racial slurs - all of which are criminal offences.



Just because something is legal does not make it right.



Just because something illegal does not make it wrong.



Funny how "hate speech" and "criminal speech" just happens to be things you disagree with, eh?





Oh, and I guess it goes without saying but....




Citation needed.






DazaiShinju wrote:


The question is not 'Do we blame Sesame Street', but rather 'What gives Sesame Street the right to exist?'






Well, all I was going for was for you to acknowledge you didn't have a logical argument, but good gravy here you done and revealed your entire totalitarian ideology.




DazaiShinju wrote:




Why is Britain First allowed to operate on such an enormous scale (proportionate to say, smaller groups of 3-4 people) in the UK, when it is linked to numerous examples of hate crimes?





Citation needed.



And "linked" is not the same as "found guilty in a court of law."





DazaiShinju wrote:


At what point does a group cease to be simply a group of like minded people, but an organization of extremists?



Might want to ask yourself that about Islam.





gornotck wrote:


runec wrote:


DazaiShinju wrote:
What I've been trying to do (although it feels more like running headfirst into a wall) is to explain that your question in the first place is absurd - not least because your analogy doesn't work.


Turn back! It's not too late to save yourself.


It is too late. She's fallen into a Maxgale vortex. She is trapped in his cyclonic area of devastation. Never able to see eye to eye, this thread will continue to grow and grow..









MysticGon wrote:

Why would a Brexit supporter kill an pro-EU MP when his side has a clear edge in the polls and has momentum. Sounds sketchy as fuck.




Yep.


Person was wacko.


Beyond that, it does seem oddly coincidental it occurred so close to the vote.
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Posted 6/18/16

runec wrote:



Dear lord.

Yep, no political motivations there and he totally didn't yell "Britain First". ><




MysticGon wrote:
Why would a Brexit supporter kill an pro-EU MP when his side has a clear edge in the polls and has momentum. Sounds sketchy as fuck.


So what then? This is an elaborate false flag operation? That's totally more believable. ;p


Maybe she was a sacrificial lamb martyred for her cause. :p Definitely a lot more scandalous.





Or this... Some people are just crazy.
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Posted 6/18/16
I am not sure I feel a lot of sadness for politicians and I'm not sure why it's attack on democracy, but as far as the crime itself goes, not very good. I find it especially bad because the quite obviously extremely mentally ill (rather that extremist, I have hard time believing he was really connected to the crappy parties he kept naming, aside from in his head) guy got gun no problem. I mean, if it was US, sure, but it's not.

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Elvikun wrote:

I am not sure I feel a lot of sadness for politicians and I'm not sure why it's attack on democracy, but as far as the crime itself goes, not very good. I find it especially bad because the quite obviously extremely mentally ill (rather that extremist, I have hard time believing he was really connected to the crappy parties he kept naming, aside from in his head) guy got gun no problem. I mean, if it was US, sure, but it's not.



He's been proven to be a BF supporter, and also has links to white supremacist groups. There are links posted above.
My title refers to the original article I posted, with the same title. It's an interesting and well written read - of course I am biased, as it sums up my stance.
Although in a nutshell, it's an attack on democracy, as the Politician murdered had opposing beliefs to the groups the man is affiliated with. To kill someone for their position on the EU, a week before the referendum is a clear rejection of the democratic process in favour of violence.
I'm terrified that Britain will leave the EU. On a personal level, it will be bad for me... but I think on a global scale it will be bad for the UK.
The EU is imperfect, but leaving is not the answer.

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Posted 6/18/16
Oh and maxgale, if you think for one second I'm going to respond to that wall of bullshit, you're mistaken. You've spent over 48 hours trying to provoke an answer to a frankly, ridiculous question... and despite my having tried to approach the topic in more than one way, seem completely incapable of grasping the point being made. I'm done with this - it's utterly pointless.
runec 
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Posted 6/18/16

DazaiShinju wrote:
I don't even think he knows.


But you see, that is font of his strength. How do you debate that which has no position? How do you argue order with chaos?

You face not an obstacle but an existential crisis given flesh and a keyboard.
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Posted 6/18/16

runec wrote:


DazaiShinju wrote:
I don't even think he knows.


But you see, that is font of his strength. How do you debate that which has no position? How do you argue order with chaos?

You face not an obstacle but an existential crisis given flesh and a keyboard.


Oh, don't fret. I have finally given up after the most recent installment of fuckery. I'm all for a debate but... I have my degree already. I'll be fucked if I'm about to give citations on the internet to appease some random... C...runchy roll user. Plus it's a fucking Saturday.
In the words of Twain
"Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

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Posted 6/18/16 , edited 6/18/16

DazaiShinju wrote:


Elvikun wrote:

I am not sure I feel a lot of sadness for politicians and I'm not sure why it's attack on democracy, but as far as the crime itself goes, not very good. I find it especially bad because the quite obviously extremely mentally ill (rather that extremist, I have hard time believing he was really connected to the crappy parties he kept naming, aside from in his head) guy got gun no problem. I mean, if it was US, sure, but it's not.



He's been proven to be a BF supporter, and also has links to white supremacist groups. There are links posted above.
My title refers to the original article I posted, with the same title. It's an interesting and well written read - of course I am biased, as it sums up my stance.
Although in a nutshell, it's an attack on democracy, as the Politician murdered had opposing beliefs to the groups the man is affiliated with. To kill someone for their position on the EU, a week before the referendum is a clear rejection of the democratic process in favour of violence.
I'm terrified that Britain will leave the EU. On a personal level, it will be bad for me... but I think on a global scale it will be bad for the UK.
The EU is imperfect, but leaving is not the answer.



Sorry, wasn't very clear with my cynicism fit there. I know he does have the ties, what I meant is that he was mentally challanged person either inspired by, or used by the groups, rather than being actual member going for an assassination per se. Doesn't make it much better, yet still it's a difference worth seeing.
And I do know the democracy thingie isn't how you named it, but it's the part I'm especially cynical about, as it feels way too much as everyone trying to use this to benefit and spinning it into "Fo' freedom! Vote X!".

And indeed, UK leaving EU would be not good for either UK or EU. I wish people would understand they are voting for the best of the bad options here, not being asked whether EU is great and perfect or not. Many seem to see it as a dichotomy in a way it most certainly is not.
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Posted 6/19/16
Well this thread went to shit pretty fast.
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Posted 6/19/16

Elvikun wrote:

Sorry, wasn't very clear with my cynicism fit there. I know he does have the ties, what I meant is that he was mentally challanged person either inspired by, or used by the groups, rather than being actual member going for an assassination per se. Doesn't make it much better, yet still it's a difference worth seeing.
And I do know the democracy thingie isn't how you named it, but it's the part I'm especially cynical about, as it feels way too much as everyone trying to use this to benefit and spinning it into "Fo' freedom! Vote X!".

That's fair enough, I see your point - I see it more like 'Whilst everyone was busy pointing fingers at immigrants, there real threat to our values went unnoticed'.


Elvikun wrote:
And indeed, UK leaving EU would be not good for either UK or EU. I wish people would understand they are voting for the best of the bad options here, not being asked whether EU is great and perfect or not. Many seem to see it as a dichotomy in a way it most certainly is not.


You've really hit the nail on the head here. The thing is, so few people understand what it is they're voting for. I could sit here and reel off a list of potential benefits that might be had by leaving. They're potential though. The issue is that the topic on the lips of everyone voting Leave is not more control over fisheries. It isn't a concern about trade regulations. It isn't a desire to protect declining areas of British industry. At least not the Leavers I've spoken to (both my parents, my boss, customers, demonstrators).

What the Leave campaign is really concerned with is immigration. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the Syria crisis, to the fear that the UK will lose more money to benefits. The figures in right-wing papers are misrepresented, in some cases fabricated. You only need to jump onto the political websites to find grandiose statements such as 'Rebecca will be an ethnic minority in her British ancestral homeland when she grows up' plastered over pictures of white babies.
My own mother was even convinced that leaving the EU would reduce the number of illegal immigrants. I don't know how she's worked that one out, but she also seems to be under the impression that closing our borders would save the NHS. Trying to explain to these people that the kind of money required to fill the gaps in NHS funding cannot, and will not be taken from the tiny portion of the UK budget that pays benefits to immigrants... that even if the budget worked that way, there wouldn't be enough to secure the NHS's future...well it's futile.
There isn't even a basic understanding amongst many people that illegal immigrants can't actually claim benefits... because they're...illegal.

The whole thing just makes me despair.
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Posted 6/19/16

DazaiShinju wrote:

You've really hit the nail on the head here. The thing is, so few people understand what it is they're voting for. I could sit here and reel off a list of potential benefits that might be had by leaving. They're potential though. The issue is that the topic on the lips of everyone voting Leave is not more control over fisheries. It isn't a concern about trade regulations. It isn't a desire to protect declining areas of British industry. At least not the Leavers I've spoken to (both my parents, my boss, customers, demonstrators).

What the Leave campaign is really concerned with is immigration. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the Syria crisis, to the fear that the UK will lose more money to benefits. The figures in right-wing papers are misrepresented, in some cases fabricated. You only need to jump onto the political websites to find grandiose statements such as 'Rebecca will be an ethnic minority in her British ancestral homeland when she grows up' plastered over pictures of white babies.
My own mother was even convinced that leaving the EU would reduce the number of illegal immigrants. I don't know how she's worked that one out, but she also seems to be under the impression that closing our borders would save the NHS. Trying to explain to these people that the kind of money required to fill the gaps in NHS funding cannot, and will not be taken from the tiny portion of the UK budget that pays benefits to immigrants... that even if the budget worked that way, there wouldn't be enough to secure the NHS's future...well it's futile.
There isn't even a basic understanding amongst many people that illegal immigrants can't actually claim benefits... because they're...illegal.

The whole thing just makes me despair.

As someone watching events unfold from afar, outside of Europe, I can't help but think this apparent day of reckoning for the EU has been a long time coming. The social tensions as a result of greater immigration are bigger than the crisis in Syria and inevitably a precursor to further problems. As of March this year there are now 7.4 Billion people on this planet and the population continues to grow exponentially. That’s more people in the same space than ever before; all struggling over diminishing supplies of fresh water, food and the share of societies wealth.

In this respect, it shouldn’t come as any great surprise to see the rise of anti-immigration movements across Europe. When regrettably the recently arrived immigrants become an easy target for populist anger, a veritable scapegoat for all society’s ills. Yet at the same time, being essentially blindsided by this wave of anti-immigrant sentiment speaks volumes of the EU’s weakness, when its de facto leaders in Brussels could do nothing to stem the tide of hatred. Frankly, it doesn’t bode well for the future of the EU when even this level of crisis has become an existential threat.

So then, what to make of the UK’s EU referendum? Personally, I’m of the opinion that the EU project has failed, as large segments of the European population now openly hold the idea of a united Europe in contempt. Any promises of a better future under the banner of the EU must be weighed against the possibility that in the next few years the EU might simply cease to exist. Because even if the UK votes to remain it’s likely that another country will soon try their luck at leaving. Getting out of the EU now might spare the UK a lot of continental turmoil down the road.
runec 
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Kintor wrote:
As of March this year there are now 7.4 Billion people on this planet and the population continues to grow exponentially. That’s more people in the same space than ever before; all struggling over diminishing supplies of fresh water, food and the share of societies wealth.


It isn't though. Population growth has been slowing for quite some time. To make this point once again: We don't have a supply problem, we have a distribution problem. We could feed the whole world tomorrow if we actually, collectively wanted too. But we do not. The planet can easily support us still, we're just terrible at sharing.

The rise of anti-immigration movements in Europe has little to do with population growth. Like you said, its a populist scapegoat. It's always been a populist scapegoat. Anti-immigration movements have always been around since time immemorial. They just get louder from time to time when its politically beneficial to tap into them. When its not, they go back to angrily muttering to themselves and sharing racist chain emails.



Kintor wroteFrankly, it doesn’t bode well for the future of the EU when even this level of crisis has become an existential threat.


I'm not sure what you mean by "this level of crisis" when this is the largest humanitarian crisis in modern history. No one could have prepared for this.

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