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Post Reply Should a person's general welfare be guaranteed and unconditional?
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20 / M / Bundaberg, Queens...
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Posted 7/1/16 , edited 7/1/16

gornotck wrote:

https://www.telstra.com.au/home-phone/plans-rates Between $25 and $85 dollars, in AUD I'd think. $63.75 per month USD.
https://www.telstra.com.au/coverage-networks/mobile-satellite Up to $185 AUD per month, plus usage charges.


who the hell pays $185 AUD a month for mobile...

A base plan costs under $40 a month (with next to no internet and unlimited calls)

I pay $100 a month since i use about 10gb of internet (that's personal usage but the phone bill alone without internet costs around $30-40
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Posted 7/1/16
As long as roads have potholes, trash needs to be picked up and toilets need cleaning...

GET TO WORK.
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13 / F / California
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Posted 7/1/16

Ryulightorb wrote:
Simplistic and foolish and stupid reply.

You need a phone in life a house or a homephone.

A Mobile is cheaper and essential even if you don't have a job.

I study and i NEED my smartphone for many reasons.


LOL dude, YOU DON'T NEED A SMARTPHONE. At ALL. You don't WORK.

Hell, smartphones don't work in the areas that a lot of people I know live, and work, and they get along just fine without one.
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Posted 7/1/16

PrinceJudar wrote:



I am successful and yes I don't have to worry about my next meal or whether I will have a roof over my head. My skills and qualifications will ensure people will fall over themselves to hire me should the CAF ever grow tried of me for some reason. I am in no mortal danger should the status quo continue as I have learned to make the status quo work for me like anyone with two or more brain cells can.

And yes Life is a cocking sucking whore but it is that exact quality that makes Life worthwhile. In the struggle we find meaning and purpose. If you take that way, well we wouldn't be human. Because that is the exact thing that defines humanity, the struggle to overcome limitations and barriers. And it is that very thing that is the sole reason we as a species are at the point where we can actually feasible discuss this pipe dream of an egalitarian society your so vehemently defending.

But if there is no limitation to overcome if we ensure no matter how useless a person is they will be taken care off by the state then what motivation do the masses have to excel? Sure the exceptional will always strive for something regardless of their material needs, it's why so many wealthy people still work and create despite not actually having any pressing need to.

But a society like an army is not judged on it's best but on it's worse. And in this fantasy of yours we'd have millions if not billions of people doing nothing but stagnating and likely developing all sorts of mental issues. Since so much of mental health is self worth and how do you measure self worth when all you're doing is hitting that feeder bar for another pellet as it were?


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Posted 7/1/16

Ryulightorb wrote:


VZ68 wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:
Home phones are really not cheap where i live a smartphones full rate would be easier to get.

Even if you don't need a job you should always have a phone on you for emergencies.



GIEV GIEV GIEV GIEV!



This is why you don't feed wildlife boys and girls.



English? you're sounding like a terrible failed troll mate atleast give some good reasoning why you would pay more for a home phone when its cheaper to have a mobile phone.


$100 is cheaper than a home phone.

I know you NEED to use 10GB of data each month because your very busy life of NOT WORKING.

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20 / M / Bundaberg, Queens...
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Posted 7/1/16

VZ68 wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:
Simplistic and foolish and stupid reply.

You need a phone in life a house or a homephone.

A Mobile is cheaper and essential even if you don't have a job.

I study and i NEED my smartphone for many reasons.


LOL dude, YOU DON'T NEED A SMARTPHONE. At ALL. You don't WORK.

Hell, smartphones don't work in the areas that a lot of people I know live, and work, and they get along just fine without one.


I do i need to call family and call the college i goto and i have been in situations where if i did not have my phone i would be dead now.

I don't work but i need a phone for emergencies and studying purposes.

You may be fine without one however if i did not have mine it would make life 1000x worse.

Not turning up to class unable to tell them i am sick....having to walk for 4-5 hours into town and back just to relay a message to someone and organize studying meet ups etc.

Not to mention if you walk around at night you need a phone not having one is being asked to get yourself killed.

just because YOU don't need one doesn't mean others don't.

Phones are so cheap there is no reason not to have one.
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20 / M / Bundaberg, Queens...
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Posted 7/1/16 , edited 7/1/16

VZ68 wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


VZ68 wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:
Home phones are really not cheap where i live a smartphones full rate would be easier to get.

Even if you don't need a job you should always have a phone on you for emergencies.



GIEV GIEV GIEV GIEV!



This is why you don't feed wildlife boys and girls.



English? you're sounding like a terrible failed troll mate atleast give some good reasoning why you would pay more for a home phone when its cheaper to have a mobile phone.


$100 is cheaper than a home phone.

I know you NEED to use 10GB of data each month because your very busy life of NOT WORKING.




I use 10gb of data whilst at the gym and going on midnight works in between studying for university and volunteering.

A home phone costs around $50 and i can't exactly carry it with me everywhere can i?

When i can have a home phone on me at all times then your argument will be valid :P


My life is very busy i spend alot of it studying and in my free time that i do get i put aside for walking and streaming music whilst i workout or if the gym is closed walk around the streets at night since i don't have time to do so in the day.

You obviously know jack shit about my life :)

I give you props on the trolling though because no one can be this silly.
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13 / F / California
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Posted 7/1/16

Ryulightorb wrote:



Phones are so cheap there is no reason not to have one.


Then get a job and pay for it yourself if you NEED it.
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Posted 7/1/16 , edited 7/1/16
This is a very broad question with no simple answer. In nature for example, there is little sympathy - survive, or die. Natural selection. On the other hand some feel that human beings have either evolved or should not be subject to the unforgiving laws of nature. Is it haughty of us to think highly of ourselves? That each and every life is sacrosanct, to be nurtured and provided for?

Perhaps compassion is to blame. Humans are not the only creatures who have exhibited behaviour that could be construed as compassion, but we are the first to define and put emphasis on it.

As much as we like to believe that nature is cold and cruel, the opposite tends to rear its head often enough that it gives us pause. For example, why do certain creatures of higher intelligence try so hard to protect their young? Why do mothers nurse their offspring, and at what point do they decide to let go? Or perhaps it's simply a matter of evolution - as in, the instinct to propagate and ensure the continuation of the species. Life always seems to find a balance between being unrelenting and giving just enough room for there to be a chance to survive.

I feel that humans, in the pursuit of civilisation, have created a separate ecosystem of sorts within the one they were born in. This separate system has its own laws and it is trying to imitate nature and find that balance; however, for that same reason it is also flawed. In nature organisms do not barter and trade; they do not seek material things; they have no need to accumulate wealth; they do not put a value on the world around them. And while they have hierarchies and fight for territory, even the weakest of the species has to put in effort to survive.

Yet people are different. We're not elephants, or dolphins, or ants who, within their species, display remarkable social traits.

Maybe if we tried to frame the question in a different way: Should weak, poor, unmotivated, lazy, or incompetent people be left to die?

Nature would probably say, yes. Human compassion would probably say, no.

Is it silly for a society to derive policies based on ideals? If only the strong survive, would that still make us human?
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Posted 7/1/16

VZ68 wrote:

You don't have a job, you aren't looking for a job, you don't need a smartphone.


You're technically correct on two of three points. I don't a job. I have two. And I'm not looking to replace either one of them soon.

That said, you didn't respond to any of my points, so I will assume that you have no arguments to make.
Posted 7/1/16
I don't know and I don't have much of an opinion. It'll likely never happen.
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Posted 7/1/16

Zoraprime wrote:


VZ68 wrote:

You don't have a job, you aren't looking for a job, you don't need a smartphone.


You're technically correct on two of three points. I don't a job. I have two. And I'm not looking to replace either one of them soon.

That said, you didn't respond to any of my points, so I will assume that you have no arguments to make.


Well good for you, you can pay your own bills, and do what you wish with your own money.

I'm talking about the lazy asses that demand the government give them a smartphone so they can shitpost on the taxpayer's dime.
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Posted 7/1/16
Some are talking about basic income in the future when automation increases leading to loss of jobs. There's also some places where it's on trial. Here's some sites talking about it.

http://basicincome.org.uk/reasons-support-basic-income/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

http://www.basicincome.org/basic-income/



A basic income is an income unconditionally granted to all on an individual basis, without means test or work requirement. It is a form of minimum income guarantee that differs from those that now exist in various European countries in three important ways:

it is being paid to individuals rather than households;
it is paid irrespective of any income from other sources;
it is paid without requiring the performance of any work or the willingness to accept a job if offered
.

I think this could work in the future depending on how it is managed and when it starts. It will allow the workforce to be all skilled and to keep updating when necessary. We already live in a society where some choose not to work. Others can't work temporarily or long term or can only manage part-time work. It's not about taking from the rich and giving to the poor either. It's meant to replace all current social welfare programs and unemployment programs and is cheaper to implement.
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Posted 7/1/16 , edited 7/1/16

Ranwolf wrote:
I am successful and yes I don't have to worry about my next meal or whether I will have a roof over my head. My skills and qualifications will ensure people will fall over themselves to hire me should the CAF ever grow tried of me for some reason. I am in no mortal danger should the status quo continue as I have learned to make the status quo work for me like anyone with two or more brain cells can.

And yes Life is a cocking sucking whore but it is that exact quality that makes Life worthwhile. In the struggle we find meaning and purpose. If you take that way, well we wouldn't be human. Because that is the exact thing that defines humanity, the struggle to overcome limitations and barriers. And it is that very thing that is the sole reason we as a species are at the point where we can actually feasible discuss this pipe dream of an egalitarian society your so vehemently defending.

But if there is no limitation to overcome if we ensure no matter how useless a person is they will be taken care off by the state then what motivation do the masses have to excel? Sure the exceptional will always strive for something regardless of their material needs, it's why so many wealthy people still work and create despite not actually having any pressing need to.

But a society like an army is not judged on it's best but on it's worse. And in this fantasy of yours we'd have millions if not billions of people doing nothing but stagnating and likely developing all sorts of mental issues. Since so much of mental health is self worth and how do you measure self worth when all you're doing is hitting that feeder bar for another pellet as it were?



Food and shelter does not need to be one of those struggles. It is very difficult to get out of the rut if one can only focus on surviving in it instead of escaping. Such conditions do not make for ideal opportunity. Having access to food or shelter does not rid people of their problems nor magically provide purpose to people's lives. A solid chunk of the homeless in the US are actually veterans, for example.

Providing basic food and shelter is not some magic egalitarian pipe dream. Have you noticed your surroundings? We're already providing tens of thousands of dollars to to put kids through universities so they can get paid to bitch on Social Media, and you think providing food is unrealistic? If we're not providing welfare upfront, we're doing it through government funded easy to perform but absolutely useless job titles.

The state is able to provide the minimum. If people aren't motivated to strive for what they want in life, taking the food and shelter away isn't going to help. Providing those things is to help those that want something out of their lives. If not now, perhaps later.

However, again, I do not see the point in all of this.Why would we avoid making people's lives just a little bit easier. It does not get rid of struggle. We have cars, and no longer is traveling an ordeal to us--but does that mean we do not struggle? Should we forgo the conveniences of life and the circumstances we were born into for the sake of achieving adequate hardship?

You say such struggle is a motivator and yet most middle/upper class children seem to find their motivation to work just fine. Starving them is perhaps...completely unnecessary to accomplish that.



@tkayt

Good post. Thanks for the links. I know it's pretty cheap to implement, especially compared to putting all these kids through college for shit degrees. I have no idea why people prefer paying for that.
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Posted 7/1/16
Space exploration and immigration: the only way to deal with increasing population and automation. I am pretty sure there will be all sorts of weird jobs for space colonization. After all, it's quite a different environment to live in, and I bet there will be unforeseen jobs popping up left and right because of it.

Honestly, this "ideal world" the OP describes intrigues me greatly. Think about it: a world where people never have to worry about surviving and having a roof to sleep under, and all of us instead direct our energy into advancing our civilization as fast as possible. We will either be ruling the Milky Way in no time or we will cause a war so big that 99% of the human population getting wiped out. Of course, this is assuming everyone has the brains to do so. After all, no matter how people argue against it, innate IQ matters in academia. There are just some people around me that cannot comprehend advanced academics.
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