First  Prev  1  2  3  Next  Last
Post Reply Idealistic Characters in Anime
75 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Canada
Offline
Posted 7/11/16 , edited 7/17/16

KongouGaro777 wrote:


greg8west wrote:

Well if this suddenly became realistic and normal people fighting yeah you could incapacitate him, but were talking about anime here and the villains usually dealt with in lots of these shows tend to be pretty damn powerful, and it takes the MC to actually beat them and until that point were usually led to believe these superhumans are incredibly hard to capture and actually lock up for a long period, and they usually have a team backing them up. In an ideal world you could knock them out, but that would require pulling your punches and holding back. In an actual death match with nearly equal power in a team fight, the team that is holding back and afraid of hurting people will lose, game over. Holding back and constantly hesitating would also increase collateral damage, making you even less focused.

Its not really a knife and gun in this case, its more he came at me with teleporting nuclear bombs so I killed him with a black hole (power up lol)

Really in a lot of shounen, and action series the reason killing is taken off the table is because they suddenly get a third deus ex machina option before they actually have to make a meaningful choice.


Usually these really idealistic characters tend to be in shounen series aimed towards young children, and it isn't exactly a kid friendly message that you should kill people when it's necessary, but you are right about the lack of consequences. At this point you would really be better off reading seinen or old school shounen series. Maybe you've read it or not but the Tokyo Ghoul manga does a really excellent job of portraying the grey vs grey morality, and idealism having consequences. This is a bit of a spoiler, but the protagonist in it is given the choice of choosing to save one of two people, a mother and child, when he says he can't choose one they both get killed. But yeah, the lack of realism in anime and manga is starting to get a bit tiring, especially with all these selfless protagonists who are completely okay with ruining themselves for the sake of others, even though they never really had any inspiration to become like that.


Boom you got a perfect example there. A character is given a life or death choice between two people, when he fails to make a choice at all the threat is actually followed through with and both people are killed. I've seen and read quite a few series where a choice nearly identical to this is given, and the MC just says "no im not like you" and than both people who were supposed to die somehow escape and it all works out in the end. That drives me crazy, especially when that villain is supposedly a mass muderer.

I've watched the Tokyo Ghoul anime, which I enjoyed the first season for the most part but I found the second season to be all over the place and a real letdown. I have been meaning to check out the manga though. I only started reading manga in the last idk around 8 months and i've already burned through maybe a hundred or so series. Love stuff along the lines of Berserk, Claymore, Ubel Blatt, although those are much darker than alot of stuff I read. I do have to read through Tokyo Ghoul one of these days but the anime has kinda made me put if off lol
6395 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M / The Abyss of Time
Offline
Posted 7/11/16

KongouGaro777 wrote:



I love TG and TG:re but I wouldn't want its view/style ("darkness-induced audience apathy") to spread to more series. Being an idealist should in no way be shown as a bad thing, something TG tends to forget as its busy torturing Kaneki. TG's view isn't 'being idealist has consequences', but 'being idealistic is going to get people around you killed and is bad thing to be' which at times annoys me to no end.

In regard to this "selfless protagonists who are completely okay with ruining themselves for the sake of others, even though they never really had any inspiration to become like that.", that's not something that needs inspiration to do. I for one have altruism as a base personality trait, not because I was inspired to be that way or because events led to that but just because that's how my brain is wired (and I wouldn't change it because I'd rather be that than a self-focused assclown only worried about my own gains).
75 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Canada
Offline
Posted 7/11/16 , edited 7/11/16

xCrimsonEX wrote:


KongouGaro777 wrote:




I love TG and TG:re but I wouldn't want its view/style ("darkness-induced audience apathy") to spread to more series. Being an idealist should in no way be shown as a bad thing, something TG tends to forget as its busy torturing Kaneki. TG's view isn't 'being idealist has consequences', but 'being idealistic is going to get people around you killed and is bad thing to be' which at times annoys me to no end.

In regard to this "selfless protagonists who are completely okay with ruining themselves for the sake of others, even though they never really had any inspiration to become like that.", that's not something that needs inspiration to do. I for one have altruism as a base personality trait, not because I was inspired to be that way or because events led to that but just because that's how my brain is wired (and I wouldn't change it because I'd rather be that than a self-focused assclown only worried about my own gains).


Yes people are wired in one way or another, and when it all comes down to it people will only ever help others and be altruistic because that's what makes them feel good and causes that nice dopamine rush in their brain. The same way a serial killer is driven to kill, simply because that's what gets the feel good chemicals flooding their brain. If helping somebody didn't make YOU feel good than you wouldn't help anybody, at least when it didn't forward your own goals.

I'd say that Tokyo Ghoul's (while having its problems) message is less being an idealist is bad, but that being the only idealist in a room full of psycho and sociopaths will lead you to failure. Pretty much due to the fact that your ideal's not only put you at odds with others but actively work against you, since you are restricted by your self imposed rules and the others just aren't. Just look at our world, who are the most successful people? Mostly sociopaths or worse, will climb the ladder in business and pretty much everywhere else. The idealist will end up sinking or being sunk. I'm not saying its a good thing its just how life works unfortunately.
24306 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / F / Various
Offline
Posted 7/11/16 , edited 7/11/16
To seek revenge is not the logical thing. It is the emotional thing.

To forgive is not the emotional thing. It is the logical thing.


Like the Joker Game example, it impractical to kill, because it draws attention. It makes the allies of the person you're getting revenge on want revenge back. It continues the cycle.

Putting aside your emotions, forgiving them, and finding a way to end the conflict so that everyone can live and be happy, is practical and logical.

Also, about morality:
Black and White Morality = The Good Guys are Good and the Bad Guys are Bad. The Bad Guys can't be understood, they can't be redeemed, they just have to be killed, because they're Bad. And it's okay to hurt them and kill them, because they're Bad.

Grey Morality = Different people have different viewpoints, and someone who doesn't agree with you doesn't automatically deserve to die for it. They might have done bad things, but so have you, and even if they've done bad things, that doesn't mean they deserve to have bad things done to them, in retaliation, because that would just be sinking to their level, and continuing the conflict instead of stopping it. Because the fabric of the world does not favor your side to the point that the "villain"'s henchmen will just fade into dust when you stab the bad guy and "restore order" .

And there are ways to destabilize someone's power without killing them, so it doesn't always mean you're going to let the mass-murderer keep murdering. Exposing them, getting their followers to abandon them, etc. The example that jumps to mind is the 2008 anime Romeo X Juliet (based on a large pile of Shakespeare tropes more than just that specific play, but yes, it's awesome).
75 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Canada
Offline
Posted 7/11/16

LavenderMintRose wrote:

To seek revenge is not the logical thing. It is the emotional thing.

To forgive is not the emotional thing. It is the logical thing.


Like the Joker Game example, it impractical to kill, because it draws attention. It makes the allies of the person you're getting revenge on want revenge back. It continues the cycle.

Putting aside your emotions, forgiving them, and finding a way to end the conflict so that everyone can live and be happy, is practical and logical.

Also, about morality:
Black and White Morality = The Good Guys are Good and the Bad Guys are Bad. The Bad Guys can't be understood, they can't be redeemed, they just have to be killed, because they're Bad. And it's okay to hurt them and kill them, because they're Bad.

Grey Morality = Different people have different viewpoints, and someone who doesn't agree with you doesn't automatically deserve to die for it. They might have done bad things, but so have you, and even if they've done bad things, that doesn't mean they deserve to have bad things done to them, in retaliation, because that would just be sinking to their level, and continuing the conflict instead of stopping it. Because the fabric of the world does not favor your side to the point that the "villain"'s henchmen will just fade into dust when you stab the bad guy and "restore order" .

And there are ways to destabilize someone's power without killing them, so it doesn't always mean you're going to let the mass-murderer keep murdering. Exposing them, getting their followers to abandon them, etc. The example that jumps to mind is the 2008 anime Romeo X Juliet (based on a large pile of Shakespeare tropes more than just that specific play, but yes, it's awesome).


Ok I thought I explained this pretty clearly. I am not saying that just murdering every slightly bad character is a smart thing, I am not saying killing is always the answer I never have.

Also revenge and forgiveness are both entirely emotional things. To just say revenge is always bad and forgiveness is always good is literally the definition of black and white. sorry but forgiveness is just as emotion based as revenge. You forgiving someone is all in your head it has no effect on the real world, why would a person who doesn't believe what they have done is wrong, the whole point is they don't have the same view as you. Go tell your neighbor you forgive him for mowing the grass and hell look at you like a maniac.

Your also getting your definition of grey morality wrong, you keep talking about doing bad things, and deserving things, the whole point is nothing is bad or good, and nobody deserves anything. Every action no matter how "bad" YOU consider it is still grey period. It doesn't matter if they just committed the holocaust its still grey.

You bring up Joker Game a show where (you say) its always a complete detriment to kill as an example for why i'm wrong, but it was never my point that you should just kill everyone you think is wrong. Why would I want to see more shows with the opposite version of the same problem, that characters who make ridiculous decisions and are constantly rewarded for it. Your solution for getting rid of mass murdering dictators is also pretty questionable to me. Just let the insane person kill tons of people every day, torturing, raping, who knows until all the murderers he employs get sick off his bullshit and quit/rebel. We have had a couple recent real life situations exactly like this actually, I hear its a wonderful time to visit Syria!

So your telling me that if you were put in front of the most vile despicable dictator that ever existed, with the means to both kill him and get away with it with no effort whatsoever, and you would turn around and just wait a few years? I guess your lucky its not your family getting tortured and killed.
5205 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
19 / M
Offline
Posted 7/12/16

LavenderMintRose wrote:

So you're saying it's good to kill people, then?

Okay. .


It;s good to kill people when the alternative is to let them kill you and harm others.
Context really makes a difference.
5962 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 7/12/16
I think it's good to have a little idealism once in a while. Too much darkness is overbearing.
24306 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / F / Various
Offline
Posted 7/12/16
You're misinterpreting what I said.

Grey morality = actions can be good or bad, but people are people. They all have good and bad aspects of their characters.

If a story sets it up that a character is a completely evil person who kills tons and tons of people and the only way to stop them is to kill them... that's the "black" side of "black and white morality". If they show the heroes as completely pure incarnations of justice, that's black and white morality. If they pit anti-heroes against a villain like that, that's black and grey morality.

But creating a villain like that is what the problem is. A villain like that is only created as an excuse to show the hero beating them up and have the audience not feel guilty about enjoying watching someone get beaten up.

Forgiving someone has an effect on the world through your actions. If you burst in somewhere screaming, "I hate you and I'm going to kill you!" there's going to be a fight. If you clear your mind, no matter what the problem is, you'll be able to solve it without violence.

To go with the dictator example, a person can't be a dictator on their own. Their need their supporters and armies to follow their orders, or else they're just "dictating" to thin air.

So the way to defeat them is to pull their support out from under them. If they're really that evil, then it shouldn't be hard to get their subordinates to betray them.
By putting aside your judgement of the dictator and their allies, you'll be able to get the allies to betray the dictator, and they'd lose their power.


But let's face reality. The person you're looking at as an enemy isn't a mass-murdering dictator. The person you think is your enemy is actually no different from you. And trying to hurt them just makes them hate you more, which just makes you hate them more, which just continues the cycle of violence. So you should just try to understand each other and stop fighting. That's what grey and grey morality is. That's what a good story is.
19907 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M / El paso Tx
Offline
Posted 7/12/16
that cause the japan culture and the fact that anime is gear for teens is way you have the pussy cat of animes mc. hell alomst every anime i seen btw that isnt a lot, but the ideas were not human like school prison. this way to gooft good doer ideas, anime is suppose to be uplifting with 98 percent of it is.
75 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Canada
Offline
Posted 7/15/16

LavenderMintRose wrote:

You're misinterpreting what I said.

Grey morality = actions can be good or bad, but people are people. They all have good and bad aspects of their characters.

If a story sets it up that a character is a completely evil person who kills tons and tons of people and the only way to stop them is to kill them... that's the "black" side of "black and white morality". If they show the heroes as completely pure incarnations of justice, that's black and white morality. If they pit anti-heroes against a villain like that, that's black and grey morality.

But creating a villain like that is what the problem is. A villain like that is only created as an excuse to show the hero beating them up and have the audience not feel guilty about enjoying watching someone get beaten up.

Forgiving someone has an effect on the world through your actions. If you burst in somewhere screaming, "I hate you and I'm going to kill you!" there's going to be a fight. If you clear your mind, no matter what the problem is, you'll be able to solve it without violence.

To go with the dictator example, a person can't be a dictator on their own. Their need their supporters and armies to follow their orders, or else they're just "dictating" to thin air.

So the way to defeat them is to pull their support out from under them. If they're really that evil, then it shouldn't be hard to get their subordinates to betray them.
By putting aside your judgement of the dictator and their allies, you'll be able to get the allies to betray the dictator, and they'd lose their power.


But let's face reality. The person you're looking at as an enemy isn't a mass-murdering dictator. The person you think is your enemy is actually no different from you. And trying to hurt them just makes them hate you more, which just makes you hate them more, which just continues the cycle of violence. So you should just try to understand each other and stop fighting. That's what grey and grey morality is. That's what a good story is.


Your still conflating your personal feelings with your interpretations of morality. The fact that you talk about good or bad actions and villains shows that your still not quite understanding what i'm trying to say. There are no good or bad actions/decisions period . Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, Morality, these are all intangible human concepts, philosophical ideas that we as a species created. An alien wouldn't be able to differentiate between what you or I consider right or wrong, they wouldn't be able to understand say the difference between factory farming and the Holocaust, a lion doesn't consider the moral implications of its current meal.

Even in this debate, neither of us is right or wrong. There is absolutely nothing objective about these concepts, no matter how black and white something may seem to me or you. No one can really know the full scope of their actions, unless they are some kind of god, and a gods ideas and motivations would not even be comparable to our own

I feel like your being hopelessly naive in your view of reality. You seem to believe that because I try to take a cold calculated view on things that I simply enjoy the way our world works and that I would like to perpetuate the violent hate filled world we live in, but I don't. The reason I advocated for the killing of a violent dictator isn't because I just love murder and that's my default setting but because I KNOW that is a solution to that current problem. Neither you nor I can say what is truly the right decision, but if that dictator is dead I have taken the most direct root to solving what I see as a problem, that is just one step its not like all is right just because one man is dead.

You keep talking about forgiveness and how it should be "easy" to turn the people against their leader because he is "evil" , but our own world history has repeatedly shown that to be wrong. Just because he is "evil" to you or me doesn't mean is subjects see it that way. Did Hitler's Germany ever really turn against or overthrow him? No they never did. It seems like you would rather shit talk him while he is slaughtering people all over the world instead of fighting World War 2, in the hopes everyone would just start seeing the world the way you do and everything will work out without anyone getting hurt. In fact it seems that you would be unfit as a leader because you would never be able to make any tough decisions regardless of circumstance. The kind of person who would be unable to kill one person to save a thousand, instead holding out hope for a miracle option to appear where nobody gets hurt, even if its a 0.001% chance. You would rather gamble everyone's lives and sacrifice everyone because killing someone is always the bad/wrong decision in your mind.

In the end its the balance of opposite opinions and ideas like me and you that makes our world work, and come up with new solutions to problems. I can't really say either of us is right no matter how wrong I believe you are in this case. In the end its a combination of ideas that can push us forward. The world needs someone like me who takes a direct route to solving problems, but it also need people like you who will always look for alternative solutions regardless of the situation. Otherwise we can never really grow and advance as a culture/society.

Sorry for the late reply I had to leave town for a few day. I really enjoy these philosophical debates, it helps me challenge my own thoughts and ideas, although I do find it a bit difficult to put my thoughts in writing. I'm a much better talker than writer so i'm sorry if I have explained some things poorly or if I come off rude or patronizing sometimes, that's not my intent. I hope we can keep this thread going for awhile!
7773 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
42 / M
Offline
Posted 7/16/16
Clueless and brain dead or just total unreal is what gets me! Though I have to give credit for crazy most bad and crazy Gets a good voice over in my mind! Accelerator was well voiced! In Index and Railgun!
75 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Canada
Offline
Posted 7/17/16

catseyestiger wrote:

Clueless and brain dead or just total unreal is what gets me! Though I have to give credit for crazy most bad and crazy Gets a good voice over in my mind! Accelerator was well voiced! In Index and Railgun!


I think theirs just more freedom for voice actors when it comes to villains and unique characters.
First  Prev  1  2  3  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.