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Post Reply Hikaru Sulu: Gay Or Straight Controversy.
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Posted 7/12/16

gornotck wrote:


WeeabooWarrior wrote:


gornotck wrote:


nooneinparticular wrote:

I think gender and race swapping existing characters is lazy and can seem like pandering or at least praise seeking. I don't see how sexual orientation is any different.


That is exactly what happened here.


I've always wondered this, if were all equal, why can't there be a character that happens to be gay or black that is well developed by their own merit?

Black Panther, War Machine, and my personal favorite static shock, are some of the best heroes ever.


The reason, I would guess, is because the people who are creating, or at least mutilating, these characters have no real imagination. In this case, they said that if they DID create a 'gay character', that would become their 'token gay character' and would only be known as 'the gay character'. They find it much, much easier to take an already established character and change things about it than to create an entirely new character that might not be even liked, and then claim 'alternate universe!' to justify how you can't tell them they shouldn't.


Can we make retcon-tokenism a thing?
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Posted 7/12/16
Actually, I reported it to correct a spelling error.


WeeabooWarrior wrote:


gornotck wrote:


nooneinparticular wrote:

I think gender and race swapping existing characters is lazy and can seem like pandering or at least praise seeking. I don't see how sexual orientation is any different.


That is exactly what happened here.


I've always wondered this, if were all equal, why can't there be a character that happens to be gay or black that is well developed by their own merit?

Black Panther, War Machine, and my personal favorite static shock, are some of the best heroes ever.


One of the reasoning behind this because Sulu was a well established character within the universe, which I honestly understand. I mean, it wasn't until 2005 that George Takei came out and said he was gay. I just think it looks bad considering the circumstances. And in all honesty? Roddenberry was well aware of the tokenism, and sought it anyway to come up with the Star Trek Universe for his vision of the future, so it isn't like this is new for the show.
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Posted 7/12/16
I think people should be far more pissed off at the bastardization of Spock's character than Sulu's sexuality.
Posted 7/12/16
I think its brainwashing to make it seem more acceptable to the mainstream, if it isn't already.


I also think it should be allowed to be discussed.

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Posted 7/12/16

sundin13 wrote:

I think people should be far more pissed off at the bastardization of Spock's character than Sulu's sexuality.


You mean how forced his human emotions were considering being raised half Vulcan?


quincristine wrote:

I think its brainwashing to make it seem more acceptable to the mainstream, if it isn't already.


I also think it should be allowed to be discussed.


Well, it was already discussed. They don't have a real argument against homosexuality. It's just deep seeded bigotry. I wouldn't call it "brainwashing" either, as this implies that making any gay character to be a politically insidious move. Honestly? We should remove politics from it if we're going to get anywhere. Stop inferring intent based on what a creator decides to do with their creations and let them have it. Not everything is a Vox Day novel.
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Posted 7/12/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I think people should be far more pissed off at the bastardization of Spock's character than Sulu's sexuality.


You mean how forced his human emotions were considering being raised half Vulcan?


Pretty much. The script does little more that play lip service to Spock's logical nature and instead just plays him like any other human character most of the time. That is a much more fundamental change to a character than making them gay, especially if it that fact doesn't hold any more importance than an off hand mention.
Posted 7/12/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I think people should be far more pissed off at the bastardization of Spock's character than Sulu's sexuality.


You mean how forced his human emotions were considering being raised half Vulcan?


quincristine wrote:

I think its brainwashing to make it seem more acceptable to the mainstream, if it isn't already.


I also think it should be allowed to be discussed.


Well, it was already discussed. They don't have a real argument against homosexuality. It's just deep seeded bigotry. I wouldn't call it "brainwashing" either, as this implies that making any gay character to be a politically insidious move. Honestly? We should remove politics from it if we're going to get anywhere. Stop inferring intent based on what a creator decides to do with their creations and let them have it. Not everything is a Vox Day novel.


I'm not against gay characters per se. I was thinking adding politics is an insidious move, and if Sulu wasn't gay but takei is, changing it to pander to a left-wing agenda is sickening to a lot of people who are fans of the original canon. So I disagree, and if others disagree, thats a viable discussion not seated in bigotry. bigotry, pandering, brainwashing, its all the same, changing history to pander to certain groups :/
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Posted 7/12/16

quincristine wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I think people should be far more pissed off at the bastardization of Spock's character than Sulu's sexuality.


You mean how forced his human emotions were considering being raised half Vulcan?


quincristine wrote:

I think its brainwashing to make it seem more acceptable to the mainstream, if it isn't already.


I also think it should be allowed to be discussed.


Well, it was already discussed. They don't have a real argument against homosexuality. It's just deep seeded bigotry. I wouldn't call it "brainwashing" either, as this implies that making any gay character to be a politically insidious move. Honestly? We should remove politics from it if we're going to get anywhere. Stop inferring intent based on what a creator decides to do with their creations and let them have it. Not everything is a Vox Day novel.


I'm not against gay characters per se. I was thinking adding politics is an insidious move, and if Sulu wasn't gay but takei is, changing it to pander to a left-wing agenda is sickening to a lot of people who are fans of the original canon. So I disagree, and if others disagree, thats a viable discussion not seated in bigotry. bigotry, pandering, brainwashing, its all the same, changing history to pander to certain groups :/


But this concerns people moreso than I think some would realize. I wish it wasn't a political in nature, and I think it shouldn't be. But I made this thread, so I guess I'm a hypocrite. I'm just a fan of Star Trek.
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Posted 7/12/16
Did Sulu ever show any attraction to anyone in the show? I really don't remember.
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Posted 7/12/16

MysticGon wrote:

Did Sulu ever show any attraction to anyone in the show? I really don't remember.


I'd say Enterprise, Excelsior, and the IKS "Bounty" along with a Huey, but other characters, not that I can think of. Sulu kept things simple.
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Posted 7/12/16 , edited 7/12/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

How do you feel about making retconning Sulu to be gay? To me, this reeks of travesty and does a disservice to George Takei's legacy. Even if it wasn't their intention, it just doesn't really look good at all. Basically? Because George Takei is actually gay, but Hikaru Sulu is another person. They're separate. I can't really put it into words, but it feels quite wrong.


What do you think?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/john-cho-sulu-a-gay-man-in-star-trek-beyond?utm_term=.tpL07W5DnN#.jg29OjkKXE


I can't believe your post got reported. I don't like it and someone who is bi I like when character especially male ones now are gay however I have never liked retcons or just going back or changing a well established character thats already straight because like fuck it we'll make them gay now.
Like people trying to make Captain America a established straight character gay or how bioware made Anders unecesarrily bi-sexual in DA2.

You want to support gay characters and i think it's great it's male characters instead of more socially accepted lesbians also great but it's so stupid to do it this way. I also get you couldn't do this back when the character were first made but its still stupid and so utterly pointless to change Sulu. I also don't know if anyone would be agitated over this if it wasn''t Sulu and I can see that but it seems way to coincidental because it isn't coicidental at all that they chose the one character make gay was played by a gay person.
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Posted 7/12/16
I just can not bring myself to actually care about this. Like really guys? These movies are total reboots anyways. They can retcon whatever they want. I mean, seriously who really cares if Sulu is gay or straight? I doubt it will have much of an impact on the actual movie. It's not like they're making brokeback mountain in space.

I swear the internet can freak out over any little thing.
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Posted 7/12/16

Kerst wrote:

I can't believe your post got reported. I don't like it and someone who is bi I like when character especially male ones now are gay however I have never liked retcons or just going back or changing a well established character thats already straight because like fuck it we'll make them gay now.
Like people trying to make Captain America a established straight character gay or how bioware made Anders unecesarrily bi-sexual in DA2.

You want to support gay characters and i think it's great it's male characters instead of more socially accepted lesbians also great but it's so stupid to do it this way. I also get you couldn't do this back when the character were first made but its still stupid and so utterly pointless to change Sulu. I also don't know if anyone would be agitated over this if it wasn''t Sulu and I can see that but it seems way to coincidental because it isn't coicidental at all that they chose the one character make gay was played by a gay person.


PV reported PV's post because PV misspelled Hikaru and needed it corrected.
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Posted 7/12/16

HoundofSnore wrote:


MysticGon wrote:

Did Sulu ever show any attraction to anyone in the show? I really don't remember.


I'd say Enterprise, Excelsior, and the IKS "Bounty" along with a Huey, but other characters, not that I can think of. Sulu kept things simple.


Heh so what is it called when you love machines? So technically they can make him whatever they want.
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Posted 7/12/16 , edited 7/12/16

DrunkKanti wrote:

I just can not bring myself to actually care about this. Like really guys? These movies are total reboots anyways. They can retcon whatever they want. I mean, seriously who really cares if Sulu is gay or straight? I doubt it will have much of an impact on the actual movie. It's not like they're making brokeback mountain in space.

I swear the internet can freak out over any little thing.


These movies are not total reboots. They're still set in the same universe and technically in the same timeline up to the start of the eleventh film directed by Abrams. The only major difference here is this timeline went off in a different direction from the original timeline because of Nero and Spock's arrival. If Sulu was straight in the original show/movies, then based on logic alone Sulu in these newer films should too be straight. Add to the fact the actor, who also worked with the creator of the series and character he portrays, was against this change really shows the pointlessness of this decision.

I'm fine with diversity, but in this case it is a false sense of diversity. I also find it bizarre how the filmmakers didn't want people to just see some token gay character, only to dangle the fact Sulu is now gay to all of the media. In the end, they ended up making Sulu their own token gay character.
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