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Post Reply Do you think healthcare should be free?
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Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16

Fayt6789 wrote:

And Anyone saying Healthcare should be free, let me ask you this. Who will pay the hospitals and Doctors and Surgeons for their work?? Government??


Under a single payer system, yes. That does not, however, necessarily mean that medical staff would be exclusively employed by the state or that payments would only be made to publicly owned clinics.


Where will Government get the money??? Taxes??? theyll take more from your check.


Actually, the revenue was planned to come from a number of sources and stood to save most households and businesses a substantial amount of money. People keep passing along this meme that Sanders had no specific plans for how to pay for his proposals and that he wanted to magic free healthcare out of a cloud of pixie dust, but he absolutely did have a plan. He provided a clear, policy-based rationale, specific revenue sources, specific taxation rates and exemptions, and projected savings and revenue for his plan.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/


Print more money?? Talk about depreciation of the $ and Inflation of Cost of living.


Good job that wasn't Sanders' proposal, then.


IT would be great if it could be implemented like it is in Canada but seriously though, WE as a country are not in any position to offer anything like it. Our $ is already quickly becoming worthless because everyone demands More money and less taxes, Which means less money in the Government, which leads to More debt, and More printing.


Sanders' plan was slated to save trillions, and the United States is currently burning mountains of cash on healthcare that it doesn't need to be and wouldn't be if it changed systems.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PCAP


If people don't like it. then people need to STOP VOTING FOR THE SAME ASSHOLES over and over again, STOP feeding into the whole You can only vote democratic or republican party bullshit. And STOP VOTING for the lesser of two evils and Start voting for what matters. WE as a people have noone to blame but ourselves. We need to stop blaming government and start blaming ourselves because WE give government the power and postion and WE support them. So If you want this country to change, STOP supporting the Bullshit. Maybe in 50 or 100 years it'll happen, But you can forget it in your lifetime.


A self-described democratic socialist endured having virtually no name recognition, hardly any initial financial support, constant attacks from mainstream media outlets, paid trolling campaigns aimed at obscuring his record and disheartening his supporters, covert party support of his opponent, political espionage against his campaign, and yet still ended up posing a substantial challenge to one of the most recognised, well-heeled establishment Democratic politicians in history. He raised enormous sums of money through individual donations, though independent (and I do stress independent) support from labour unions benefited him as well. He has, since losing the primary race, done what he can to rally his supporters to vote for Clinton in the short term for the sake of protecting progressivism's gains from Trump and encouraged pushing for progressivism's advancement in future primary races (whether by voting or running) and activism, and an enormous number of people have heeded his call.

That sure looks like doing something to try to change the situation to me even if it does incorporate a vote for the "lesser of two evils" in the interim. Having and enacting a long-term plan rather than focusing on short-term gains is how you succeed in politics.
Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16
No, everyone should work and pay for their own healthcare, thats part of self-responsibility.
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Posted 8/16/16

VerdantHills wrote:

No, everyone should work and pay for their own healthcare, thats part of self-responsibility.


meds etc are not cheap so even if the person has a average income they still may not be able to cover it especially with some of the more severe illnesses
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Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16
I'm British and immensely proud of our free National Health Service (NHS).
I have needed it several times it has always been there.
The security and reassurance you get from knowing the NHS is there and that you will not be refused treatment because 'you can't afford it' is immense.

And you don't pay through the nose for it (paid through your tax) as it's generally non profit making. At least at the moment.
And should you really need it for major costly procedures, it is still free. I read all the time about how great the US system is, and also read all the time about people being bankrupted by medical costs, or having their medical insurance cover end the moment they get something long term or costly.

No the NHS doesn't have unlimited funds so can't indulge every wish for new and expensive, and more importantly unproven, treatment that may possibly help, but may just be a waste of money, although even then it tries its best to help where it can.
It may make people wait for minor operations, but hey it's free, and you will get treat in time. Better that than having to scrabble for money just to get urgent conditions seen to.
And you can choose to go private and get treat quicker if you wish, and have private rooms and such like. But that's your choice and not a cost foisted on you.

The Tories though are desperate to sell it off to their 'friends' to make themselves a quick buck (like anything else not nailed down at the moment). The Tory so called 'elites' generally have lots of money and would go private anyway, so are incensed at the thought of us 'the plebs' getting treat for free (even though it is tax payer funded, so we have paid for it all ready).
But Tories like the Prime Minister David Cameron will still use NHS services for free treatment when it gets costly (like for his disabled son). So definitely a lot of hypocrisy from them on the NHS.

Personally I would turn the question round - Why does YOUR government NOT ensure it's citizens are kept healthy?
Why is health care only the preserve of the rich?
Is making profits for medical companies more important than the health of the citizens?
Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16

dragonlord1234 wrote:


VerdantHills wrote:

No, everyone should work and pay for their own healthcare, thats part of self-responsibility.


meds etc are not cheap so even if the person has a average income they still may not be able to cover it especially with some of the more severe illnesses


Then the costs should be lowered so that they can afford it, but not free.
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Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

The quality of mental health isn't really the problem with mental health as much as the affordability of mental health therapy. The only reform we truly need in that aspect is to make it easily available to the bottom 99%.

America attaches way less stigma than Japan.


Inb4 a certain someone comes in here and states "Just because you ask for it doesn't mean you deserve it".


To paraphrase BlueOni, "If there is audible benefit to society, then there's serious consideration to be had on the implementation of that policy"


Honestly? People don't deserve to die at the hands of the lone gunman, and since you're willing to debate mental health care instead, why not make it actually affordable? Heck, a great deal of university include some form of free or subsidized psychological therapy.


Sweden had that policy and ended up with a 102% tax rate on some of the highest tax bracket causing a mass exodus of jobs and caused the left party to lose their iron grip in politics in the 1970's. Economics of such wishful thoughts must always be considered.

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Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16

dragonlord1234 wrote:
Obama care isn't actually all that good of a health care system. i feel it was like someone throwing a bone to a dog but their was no meat or marrow in it.


I would have to agree. Maybe Congress (or some other politician that will throw just as big of a hissy fit as Obama when they don't get their act passed) will succeed repealing it during the next presidential term...

One could hope
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Posted 8/16/16

VerdantHills wrote:


dragonlord1234 wrote:


VerdantHills wrote:

No, everyone should work and pay for their own healthcare, thats part of self-responsibility.


meds etc are not cheap so even if the person has a average income they still may not be able to cover it especially with some of the more severe illnesses


Then the costs should be lowered so that they can afford it, but not free.


meds etc aren't cheap to produce quite often. plus the etc includes paying for the staff doctors,scientists,etc. the materials, then their are various equipment that some people need some which would need maintenance or replacement,then surgery is for sure not a cheap procedure most of the time. these aren't the sort of costs the average person can afford.
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Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16
Healthcare should be free to an extent. Ireland has free healthcare.

Though when I say free most people do have to pay taxes towards the healthcare system, though not everyone does, disabled people (physical and mental, me being an example) don't have to pay it and for children under a certain age the tax requirement is waived. It's a good system and in theory works well, especially when augmented with private services for those that can afford to pay for a shorter wait.

However the service has been getting steadily worse over the years, not because we don't have enough money for a proper healthcare system its all down to mismanagement. None of the health ministers we have had in a long while have any idea how to run the healthcare system and to say none are corrupt is being naive.

This leaves the people trying to keep the healthcare system working to some extent having to badger people who are in full right to have completely free healthcare and to having to cute wages, close hospitals and generally fail at providing healthcare and leaving more and more people to die on trolleys in hallways without ever getting the help they need.

The main problem is while Ireland has corruption laws they are not nearly effective enough and corrupt ministers and civil servants usually get off with little more than some bad press.

Baring the failings of the Irish Government I do believe in free healthcare, just as I believe in free education excluding taxes of course (everyone should pay to the extent that they are able), but even paying just taxes is by far a much cheaper option than paying full price (10,000 or 20,000 for some relatively simple procedures? Are you nuts America?!?). As someone who has never lived in the USA and has no intention of living there for any really length of time I actually find it quite disheartening that a country that calls itself the best in the world is failing its people so badly in so many ways. Healthcare being one of the most important.
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Posted 8/16/16
Ah the NHS! Another beacon of hope in the terrifying sea of "You should pay thousands for an ingrown toenail!"

Brothers in healthcare! <3
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Posted 8/16/16

dragonlord1234 wrote:


VerdantHills wrote:


dragonlord1234 wrote:


VerdantHills wrote:

No, everyone should work and pay for their own healthcare, thats part of self-responsibility.


meds etc are not cheap so even if the person has a average income they still may not be able to cover it especially with some of the more severe illnesses


Then the costs should be lowered so that they can afford it, but not free.


meds etc aren't cheap to produce quite often. plus the etc includes paying for the staff doctors,scientists,etc. the materials, then their are various equipment that some people need some which would need maintenance or replacement,then surgery is for sure not a cheap procedure most of the time. these aren't the sort of costs the average person can afford.


It depends on the med. The placebo effect is very real in some cases, in others it's a wonder you don't die from ingesting prescribed pills; looking at the number of meds that have HCl as an active ingredient, you may as well be taking shots of Muriatic acid... The good painkillers are mostly opiate derived, so why not go straight to the source and sell patients a bag of ground poppy seed instead? Oh... right... the government doesn't like to support the underground industries--but, oddly enough, has a self-reported tax on the private sale of narcotics and other drugs (I wonder if anyone ever files those )
Humms 
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Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16

Fayt6789 wrote:

And Anyone saying Healthcare should be free, let me ask you this. Who will pay the hospitals and Doctors and Surgeons for their work?? Government?? Where will Government get the money??? Taxes??? theyll take more from your check. Print more money?? Talk about depreciation of the $ and Inflation of Cost of living. IT would be great if it could be implemented like it is in Canada but seriously though, WE as a country are not in any position to offer anything like it. Our $ is already quickly becoming worthless because everyone demands More money and less taxes, Which means less money in the Government, which leads to More debt, and More printing. If people don't like it. then people need to STOP VOTING FOR THE SAME ASSHOLES over and over again, STOP feeding into the whole You can only vote democratic or republican party bullshit. And STOP VOTING for the lesser of two evils and Start voting for what matters. WE as a people have noone to blame but ourselves. We need to stop blaming government and start blaming ourselves because WE give government the power and postion and WE support them. So If you want this country to change, STOP supporting the Bullshit. Maybe in 50 or 100 years it'll happen, But you can forget it in your lifetime.


In all reality, to value life, to help save lives, to cure, treat, and prevent illness, why would we have to worry about money? Are you really that selfish? Medical break through and even medicine should be priority, not profit, and it should be offered to people accordingly within reason. Monkeys could run a country better than most people.

Who actually has money? We are all in debt, nobody has a Fucking dime to their name in all reality. The government can take away everyone's money right now and we still couldn't pay off the debt everyone owes. Yet we would spend 70 million dollars on a pension plan that will never exist, when we could build better hospitals, and offer better care for people, and pay for things of value.

Who is really going to pay anyone? I think it is jest that you think we couldn't provide people with free health care. Peoples lives should come first before money, but it makes me sick to know that leaders will always ask the people for their donations and help when they themselves can't even keep the economy in the green, when people barely get by just to even live, let alone pay for their health care that doesnt even exist for most, a vicious cycle that will continue to drive us further into debt. If money has such value, why isn't it being used properly? Oh I forgot, because our titles earn more respect than life itself.
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Posted 8/16/16

PandAndy wrote:


dragonlord1234 wrote:


VerdantHills wrote:


dragonlord1234 wrote:


VerdantHills wrote:

No, everyone should work and pay for their own healthcare, thats part of self-responsibility.


meds etc are not cheap so even if the person has a average income they still may not be able to cover it especially with some of the more severe illnesses


Then the costs should be lowered so that they can afford it, but not free.


meds etc aren't cheap to produce quite often. plus the etc includes paying for the staff doctors,scientists,etc. the materials, then their are various equipment that some people need some which would need maintenance or replacement,then surgery is for sure not a cheap procedure most of the time. these aren't the sort of costs the average person can afford.


It depends on the med. The placebo effect is very real in some cases, in others it's a wonder you don't die from ingesting prescribed pills; looking at the number of meds that have HCl as an active ingredient, you may as well be taking shots of Muriatic acid... The good painkillers are mostly opiate derived, so why not go straight to the source and sell patients a bag of ground poppy seed instead? Oh... right... the government doesn't like to support the underground industries--but, oddly enough, has a self-reported tax on the private sale of narcotics and other drugs (I wonder if anyone ever files those )


true still meds are often necessary and are also often not cheap to produce
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Posted 8/16/16 , edited 8/16/16

Rujikin wrote:

Sweden had that policy and ended up with a 102% tax rate on some of the highest tax bracket causing a mass exodus of jobs and caused the left party to lose their iron grip in politics in the 1970's. Economics of such wishful thoughts must always be considered.


That was a quirk of Swedish tax law, not an inevitable consequence of a healthcare system that's free at the point of access.
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Posted 8/16/16

BlueOni wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

Sweden had that policy and ended up with a 102% tax rate on some of the highest tax bracket causing a mass exodus of jobs and caused the left party to lose their iron grip in politics in the 1970's. Economics of such wishful thoughts must always be considered.


That was a quirk of Swedish tax law, not an inevitable consequence of a healthcare system that's free at the point of access.


When your scavenging for funds the first thing most socialists think of is "lets tax the rich". Well they taxed the rich so much it wasn't worth it for them to start new jobs or even keep their jobs in Sweden.
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