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Post Reply Is it fair to have transgender women compete athletically against non-transgender women?
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/21/16
The other night I watched one of the Olympic women's 800 meter semifinal races.

The commentators mentioned that part of the controversy is that even some of the athletes think its unfair that transgender women are competing.

When watching the race, I think it's very obvious that the South African athlete had a clear physical advantage. She's clearly bigger, bulkier, taller and (if one could actually look stronger) stronger than everyone else running in that heat by quite a bit.

She won by a large margin.

She is the favorite to not only win the gold but also establish a new world record for women's 800 meters.

Is this fair physical competition? By the looks of it, I really can't say that it is.

Of course, if you say it isn't then it's the regular can of worms.

Edit: I have done some research online. In cases of intersex women who were born with reproductive organs or secondary sex characteristics that don’t develop or align in the typical way such as Caster Semenya the issues are far from simple:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html


Some intersex women, for instance, have XX chromosomes and ovaries, but because of a genetic quirk are born with ambiguous genitalia, neither male nor female. Others have XY chromosomes and undescended testes, but a mutation affecting a key enzyme makes them appear female at birth; they’re raised as girls, though at puberty, rising testosterone levels spur a deeper voice, an elongated clitoris and increased muscle mass. Still other intersex women have XY chromosomes and internal testes but appear female their whole lives, developing rounded hips and breasts, because their cells are insensitive to testosterone. They, like others, may never know their sex development was unusual, unless they’re tested for infertility — or to compete in world-class sports.
iridi 
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/19/16
If we wanted complete fairness, then we'd split people up by physical skill (or at least build) rather than gender. Although gender is generally a good way to split people for athletic competitions there's always outliers even among cis people.
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/22/16
Hell no. This whole "you are a woman if you feel like it" crap is a real problem these days.

now I am not saying people can't live their lives the way they want. You want to wear a dress and do feminine things? Sure why should I stop you?

But the problem I mainly have is these people are demanding they be treated like ACTUAL women in ever respect .... but they aren't. There are biological differences between men and women and no amount of plastic surgery or hormone injections will change all of that.


Again not arguing they can't live their lives the way they want but they need to do so while accepting themselves for who they truly are. Not pretending they are the other gender but accepting they are their born gender but just don't fit into the typical gender norms.


And issues like in the OP highlight my point.

Men and women are kept separate in Olympic sports primarily because men and women have biological differences creating what many consider an unfair advantage. So doesn't it seem wrong that someone biologically male (and thus has those same advantages) can compete is women's sports as long as they decide "no I want to be a woman instead"?

But when people bring matters like this up the other side will get defensive and act like you are dictating their right to live by their own choices. They are ignoring reality and it's inconveniences for the sake of their feelings but no amount of feelings can change facts.
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/22/16
No it isn't fair, guys biologically are stronger.
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/19/16

nanikore2 wrote:

The other night I watched one of the Olympic women's 800 meter semifinal races.

The commentators mentioned that part of the controversy is that even some of the athletes think its unfair that transgender women are competing.

When watching the race, I think it's very obvious that the South African athlete had a clear physical advantage. She's clearly bigger, bulkier, taller and (if one could actually look stronger) stronger than everyone else running in that heat by quite a bit.=


That was usually often said of Russian athletes, and NOT because of TG issues...

(Basically, if you live in Boston, you just take it for granted that Africa, a continent of wide-open countries, just walks away with all the distance/track events.)
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Posted 8/19/16

Ejanss wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

The other night I watched one of the Olympic women's 800 meter semifinal races.

The commentators mentioned that part of the controversy is that even some of the athletes think its unfair that transgender women are competing.

When watching the race, I think it's very obvious that the South African athlete had a clear physical advantage. She's clearly bigger, bulkier, taller and (if one could actually look stronger) stronger than everyone else running in that heat by quite a bit.=


That was usually often said of Russian athletes, and NOT because of TG issues...


Except it's not like russians are just automatically stronger by nature. They just take their athletics way more fucking seriously.

Also the idea of the olympics is to compete between nations. You just just leave russia out because they tryhard.

But in this case the issue is we have an existing division between males and females but someone biologically male who says they identify as female is crossing the division. But the division wasn't made based on feelings. It was made because men and women are biologically different.


It's not like they have to ban Trans people from the Olympics. They could just be required to complete in the gender category they are biologically part of. They are still free to compete just like everyone else but they just have to respect what they are biologically and accept it.
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Posted 8/19/16

Ejanss wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

The other night I watched one of the Olympic women's 800 meter semifinal races.

The commentators mentioned that part of the controversy is that even some of the athletes think its unfair that transgender women are competing.

When watching the race, I think it's very obvious that the South African athlete had a clear physical advantage. She's clearly bigger, bulkier, taller and (if one could actually look stronger) stronger than everyone else running in that heat by quite a bit.=


That was usually often said of Russian athletes, and NOT because of TG issues...


Would a transgender woman competing be considered using an unfair advantage, like doping?

The one thing that went through my mind was that Usain Bolt won all his races through the years in this insane fashion, and no one complains about his height advantage... Then again, his running talent is unequaled and just about everyone respect that.

I honestly don't know what could be done about this situation. It's almost a no-win.
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/22/16
Yes this topic is like gay marriage and gay marriage is legal so it wouldn't be fair.
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18 / M / New York
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/22/16
Technically it isn't fair because they were born male but after goring through the transformation it wouldn't be fair to call them guys because it is very disrespectful since you wouldn't be respecting their decision

Edit: I believe there is no right or wrong answer for this
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Posted 8/19/16

nanikore2 wrote:


Ejanss wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

The other night I watched one of the Olympic women's 800 meter semifinal races.

The commentators mentioned that part of the controversy is that even some of the athletes think its unfair that transgender women are competing.

When watching the race, I think it's very obvious that the South African athlete had a clear physical advantage. She's clearly bigger, bulkier, taller and (if one could actually look stronger) stronger than everyone else running in that heat by quite a bit.=


That was usually often said of Russian athletes, and NOT because of TG issues...


Would a transgender woman competing be considered using an unfair advantage, like doping?

The one thing that went through my mind was that Usain Bolt won all his races through the years in this insane fashion, and no one complains about his height advantage... Then again, his running talent is unequaled and just about everyone respect that.

I honestly don't know what could be done about this situation. It's almost a no-win.


IT's not no win it's easy win. It's wrong to punish someone or ban them just because they are more talented or worked harder.

The issue with trans is that it's not all about talent or work. Now you are mixing gender based bilogical advantages into the mix.

Also it's not like transgender don't have a place. There is a men's division right over there where everyone has the same male hormones giving them an equal athletic boost. No one is being excluded or left out.

If a specific individual has something adnormal about them that gives them an advantage then there is nothing you can really do as this advantage is unique to them as thus there is no way to even out this advantage.
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/19/16
Hell, it never even occurred to me that the SA runner was trans - I did watch the race live, but I had the sound muted. I've seen female bodybuilders with similar stature before. But, yes, I do believe it is unfair, viewing this solely from a biological standpoint. Having a stronger male body is an advantage, regardless of how the runner identifies in terms of gender.

I also strongly agree with iridi in this case, too.


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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/22/16

Jesus1217 wrote:

Technically it isn't fair because they were born male but after goring through the transformation it wouldn't be fair to call them guys because it is very disrespectful since you wouldn't be respecting their decision

Edit: I believe there is no right or wrong answer for this


The problem is it's not all about them or their choice.

Some things are just not up for debate and can't be chosen.

You can't choose your parents.

You can't choose your siblings.

and you can't choose what you are born as.

I am all for respecting their choice to live as they wish. I want to re emphasize that I am in no way against this.


But what if I "choose" to identify as an esper? am I suddenly going to gain ESP? NO!!!

The point is reality doesn't conform to your feelings and you have to accept that you can't just decide what you are. People need to stop living in a fantasy world where they think they can do whatever they want based on feelings.

Life isn't that convenient people. But that is just how life is and we ALL have to deal with it.
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Posted 8/19/16

Metazoxan wrote:

Also it's not like transgender don't have a place. There is a men's division right over there where everyone has the same male hormones giving them an equal athletic boost. No one is being excluded or left out.

If a specific individual has something adnormal about them that gives them an advantage then there is nothing you can really do as this advantage is unique to them as thus there is no way to even out this advantage.


The IOC have tried a definition of "woman" based on hormone levels before, and it didn't work. Later on the policy was deemed unscientific and discriminatory and was repealed.

Every time some definition is worked into the equation it creates a problem somewhere down the road. The devil's always in the details. So you have this problem where it becomes intractable as soon as you try to specifically define things like what's a woman or "abnormality" and what's not. It's ridiculous but that's how things turn out.
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Posted 8/19/16
Y'know, while I'm generally indifferent to the usual criticism against transgenders, this is an issue where I can say "you know what, maybe they have a point this time". Granted though, I don't really know enough about all the factors involved in the issue of athletic fairness and how it relates to transgenders for me to form an opinion more solid than "...maybe, I guess?".
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Posted 8/19/16 , edited 8/22/16
No lol, a man competing against women in the Olympics is not fair. Their builds are different and they perform differently, that's why they're separated by gender. A man who thinks he's a woman is still built like a man, letting him compete with women is retarded.
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