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Post Reply Segregated Student Housing for Black Students
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Posted 9/7/16 , edited 9/7/16

sundin13 wrote:

It is a middle-ground for those who want segregation. Half way there, but with enough moral ambiguity that it can slide. Its not segregation by policy, but I would be extremely interested to see what the social attitudes would be in communities such as that. The idea is "black community", so would a white person be seen as intruding?


I see that concern, but then as I indicate in the edit you reasonably could've missed it doesn't sound that different from the concept of a fraternity or sorority. There are fraternities and sororities established for the sole purpose of fostering an environment and community that Christians find comfortable and inviting and promoting peer and professor networks devoted to Christian studies and charity. Should they not do that?
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Posted 9/7/16

sundin13 wrote:


ran76 wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

This is a disturbing trend which I can't imagine being constitutional...


how? especially if they're volunteering to segregate themselves. if they were being forced then you would be right



The black population "segregating themselves" is just another way of saying that they are kicking out whites (and potentially other non-black ethnicities). That said, even if it is constitutional, its still fucking stupid.


true, but there's no constitutional amendment against stupidity

Emtro 
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Posted 9/7/16
Exclusion based on race... what did they used to call that? I can't remember. BlueOni, help us out, would you?
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Posted 9/7/16

Emtro wrote:

Exclusion based on race... what did they used to call that? I can't remember. BlueOni, help us out, would you?


You can't be serious.
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Posted 9/7/16
Racism is massively blown out of proportion here in the United states[can't speak for another country]. Needless to say it exists, but making something a bigger problem than it is leads to unnecessary danger.
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Posted 9/7/16

BlueOni wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

It is a middle-ground for those who want segregation. Half way there, but with enough moral ambiguity that it can slide. Its not segregation by policy, but I would be extremely interested to see what the social attitudes would be in communities such as that. The idea is "black community", so would a white person be seen as intruding?


I see that concern, but then as I indicate in the edit you reasonably could've missed it doesn't sound that different from the concept of a fraternity or sorority. There are fraternities and sororities established for the sole purpose of fostering an environment and community that Christians find comfortable and inviting and promoting peer and professor networks devoted to Christian studies and charity. Should they not do that?


I don't really know much about the Frat system. Are there actually frats based on uncontrollable elements such as race? I think looking for a group of people with similar interests is fine (and religion I do think counts as part of that), but looking for people with similar skin color I don't think is. That said, again they skirt this to some degree by claiming that it is for people with an interest in Pan-African studies which is fine, but I wonder how much that is just a bit of a sleight of hand to make the idea that this sounds a bit racist go away.
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Posted 9/7/16

sundin13 wrote:

I don't really know much about the Frat system. Are there actually frats based on uncontrollable elements such as race? I think looking for a group of people with similar interests is fine (and religion I do think counts as part of that), but looking for people with similar skin color I don't think is. That said, again they skirt this to some degree by claiming that it is for people with an interest in Pan-African studies which is fine, but I wonder how much that is just a bit of a sleight of hand to make the idea that this sounds a bit racist go away.


The thing I'd point to is that fraternities and sororities are generally single-sex institutions, though I could imagine some that are unisex and some that have provisions in place for transgender members.
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Posted 9/7/16

BlueOni wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I don't really know much about the Frat system. Are there actually frats based on uncontrollable elements such as race? I think looking for a group of people with similar interests is fine (and religion I do think counts as part of that), but looking for people with similar skin color I don't think is. That said, again they skirt this to some degree by claiming that it is for people with an interest in Pan-African studies which is fine, but I wonder how much that is just a bit of a sleight of hand to make the idea that this sounds a bit racist go away.


The thing I'd point to is that fraternities and sororities are generally single-sex institutions, though I could imagine some that are unisex and some that have provisions in place for transgender members.


Yeah, that is true (and I do think sex segregation is a bit of a relic) but I also think that sexual segregation is a bit of a different beast than racial segregation (hence sex segregated bathrooms). That said, I probably shouldn't have been quite as blankety in my earlier statements....
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Posted 9/8/16

sundin13 wrote:


BlueOni wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I don't really know much about the Frat system. Are there actually frats based on uncontrollable elements such as race? I think looking for a group of people with similar interests is fine (and religion I do think counts as part of that), but looking for people with similar skin color I don't think is. That said, again they skirt this to some degree by claiming that it is for people with an interest in Pan-African studies which is fine, but I wonder how much that is just a bit of a sleight of hand to make the idea that this sounds a bit racist go away.


The thing I'd point to is that fraternities and sororities are generally single-sex institutions, though I could imagine some that are unisex and some that have provisions in place for transgender members.


Yeah, that is true (and I do think sex segregation is a bit of a relic) but I also think that sexual segregation is a bit of a different beast than racial segregation (hence sex segregated bathrooms). That said, I probably shouldn't have been quite as blankety in my earlier statements....


There are several African American fraternities, Asian american, Latino and apparently even Armenian Fraternities... I realise it doesn't really move your discussion on much but I thought it was an interesting fact
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Posted 9/8/16 , edited 9/8/16
^ That, too. Thanks.


sundin13 wrote:

Yeah, that is true (and I do think sex segregation is a bit of a relic) but I also think that sexual segregation is a bit of a different beast than racial segregation (hence sex segregated bathrooms). That said, I probably shouldn't have been quite as blankety in my earlier statements....


I agree that fraternities and sororities being segregated by sex is a bit dated, but as long as they have provisions in place for transgender members I don't think it really does any damage.

You're asking reasonable questions and raising reasonable concerns. I just think the matter of whether some students would like this housing arrangement to be "black only" as a matter of university policy is moot as long as the university keeps its word and prevents discriminatory treatment/intimidation of non-black members and maintains a non-discriminatory application process.
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Posted 9/8/16

BlueOni wrote:

^ That, too. Thanks.


sundin13 wrote:

Yeah, that is true (and I do think sex segregation is a bit of a relic) but I also think that sexual segregation is a bit of a different beast than racial segregation (hence sex segregated bathrooms). That said, I probably shouldn't have been quite as blankety in my earlier statements....


I agree that fraternities and sororities being segregated by sex is a bit dated, but as long as they have provisions in place for transgender members I don't think it really does any damage.

You're asking reasonable questions and raising reasonable concerns. I just think the matter of whether some students would like this housing arrangement to be "black only" as a matter of university policy is moot as long as the university keeps its word and prevents discriminatory treatment/intimidation of non-black members and maintains a non-discriminatory application process.


Yeah, I do think that Universities are very much responsible for the type of communities they create and they are responsible for (in an overall sense) the way their students react to certain ideas and situations. If the communities start to become hostile or unfriendly towards non-black students, that is very much the Universities problem and if they breed an insular community which has trouble dealing with outsiders or conflict, contrasting ideas etc (basically the problem with embracing the idea of "safe space" towards the unhealthy direction), that is also very much a problem. I also think that the idea of "black student demands" is some rough territory, and I think it might be easy for some schools to meet those demands, but I also think that will push some things (like cost) onto other students, so I think they need to ensure fairness in that regard too. There is no guarantee that this type of community is going to go in that direction, but I do think it is certainly a risk and I'll be trying to follow this type of stories to see how exactly this is followed up in the future.
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Posted 9/8/16 , edited 9/8/16
ladies and gentlemen, it appears we have gone full circlejerk
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Posted 9/8/16

animegirl2222 wrote:

ladies and gentlemen, it appears we have gone full circlejerk


Happens a lot around these parts.
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Posted 9/8/16

sundin13 wrote:

Yeah, I do think that Universities are very much responsible for the type of communities they create and they are responsible for (in an overall sense) the way their students react to certain ideas and situations. If the communities start to become hostile or unfriendly towards non-black students, that is very much the Universities problem and if they breed an insular community which has trouble dealing with outsiders or conflict, contrasting ideas etc (basically the problem with embracing the idea of "safe space" towards the unhealthy direction), that is also very much a problem. I also think that the idea of "black student demands" is some rough territory, and I think it might be easy for some schools to meet those demands, but I also think that will push some things (like cost) onto other students, so I think they need to ensure fairness in that regard too. There is no guarantee that this type of community is going to go in that direction, but I do think it is certainly a risk and I'll be trying to follow this type of stories to see how exactly this is followed up in the future.


We'll simply have to see if CSU lives up to its word, then.

I'll also note that I do object to privately incorporated fraternities whose membership standards are discriminatory on the basis of race, though that's trickier business since they're private clubs (and are thus technically able to discriminate in ways they otherwise couldn't). Still, if they have houses on university owned land they shouldn't be allowed to do that, and to many predominately black fraternities' and sororities' credit there are those that have made this a guarantee in their constitutions. The fact remains, however, that there are chapters that have historically engaged in inappropriate and discriminatory practices, and they should be prevented from doing so within the boundaries of university property.

The sort of thing that I've said I'd be alright with is a fraternity or sorority whose membership standards are not based on the race/ethnicity of applicants, though their purpose for incorporation could be to foster professional and casual social networks among minority groups and/or to do things like promote civil rights activism, perform charity work, study a particular topic or set of topics, and so on.
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Posted 9/8/16
A lot of you are saying this is going backwards, but you aren't quite right. They don't want everyone to have their own little racially segregated "safe" space, just minorities. Basically, they still want access to everything whites have created and whites are not allowed to have a segregated space apart from them, but they want the ability to do that to us.
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