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Post Reply Yet another person shot and killed while having their hands up
Posted 9/20/16

octorockandroll wrote:


Hrafna wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I was never taught that a policeman has the right to shoot you if you don't do what they say.


Maybe you're not American.


I know for a fact that America has proportionate response as well.


I... don't know what that means.
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Posted 9/20/16

octorockandroll wrote:


EichiXIII wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

Oh yeah, I'm not saying this guy shouldn't have been taken down. But I think I'm going to side a bit more with the victim for now just because of the trends I've noticed in law enforcement recently. Especially this thing

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/police-accidentally-record-themselves-conspiring-fabricate-criminal-charges-against

Yeah, that doesn't paint the police ina great light... However if it does turn out that there is another side to this story we havent seen yet I will eat my words like they are gnocchi, but the evidence we have been presented with seems to strongly suggest that the fault lies with the officers.



I think the biggest indicator of something going majorly wrong on the police side is the fact he was both shot and tasered at the same time. It makes it seem like there was some sort of miscommunication or something or someone freaked out. I don't know but they definitely need to explain what happened on their end. I'll still have a hard time putting all responsibility on the cops though because it never would have gotten to that point if he had just obeyed orders got down let them handcuff him and talked it out. Right now without further evidence I'm sitting at a good 70% for him and 30% cops. If they can't give any reason or give a bad explanation over what happened with the taser thing then I'll prolly go 40% for him and 60% for cops being at fault. Going 50-50 would just seem like a cop out IMO.


HA! I see what you did there.


qwueri 
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Posted 9/20/16
There badly needs to be an effective taser or other option other than fatally shooting suspects.
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Posted 9/20/16
22 seconds into that video is when the guy decided to forfeit his life. Some may argue it was when he started walking away from the officer at the start, but at :22 it's all but over when he lowers his hand to reach into the car or for his belt. The other cops just arrived on the scene and leave their cars as the man walked to the car and joined the other cop just as the suspect is seen reaching. Once this goes to trial and they sync it up with the officer yelling "Get on the ground" or something to that affect, repeatedly, and the shouts of "get your hands up" as he reaches... well there is no way in hell those cops are going to be found guilty of any wrong doing.

These events unfold in seconds...You have 5 different people all thinking and reacting to different things. An officer only pulls his weapon when he is about to use it because he fears for his life, or the life of a bystander. It's not TV where the cops wave the gun around like an idiot and fire into the air, or try to kneecap a suspect. If a cop draws his weapon you better believe he will use it. If he does fire his weapon, unless he has bad aim, you are going to die. Police ALWAYS shoot to kill. That's how they are trained, your skin color doesn't make a shit bit of difference.
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Posted 9/20/16 , edited 9/20/16

Hrafna wrote:

I... don't know what that means.


It means the punishment has to be proportionate to the crime comitted. So instead of shooting at the unarmed person for walking away from them, the reasonable cop would tackle or taser him. A police officer is only allowed to shoot when their life or that of a civilianis directly being threatened.
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Posted 9/20/16

MeanderCat wrote:
Riddle me this: Why was no first aid rendered or even attempted for two minutes after the shooting? Why was there one taser fired, and just one weapon fired? If the suspect really was dangerous, why didn't the other officers draw their weapons?


The officer that shot him was a trained EMS and did have a trama bag in her vehicle. But the police spokeswoman stated, and this is a direct quote:

"I don't know that we have protocol on how to render aid to people."




EichiXIII wrote:
I think the biggest indicator of something going majorly wrong on the police side is the fact he was both shot and tasered at the same time. It makes it seem like there was some sort of miscommunication or something or someone freaked out. I don't know but they definitely need to explain what happened on their end. I'll still have a hard time putting all responsibility on the cops though because it never would have gotten to that point if he had just obeyed orders got down let them handcuff him and talked it out. Right now without further evidence I'm sitting at a good 70% for him and 30% cops. If they can't give any reason or give a bad explanation over what happened with the taser thing then I'll prolly go 40% for him and 60% for cops being at fault. Going 50-50 would just seem like a cop out IMO.


The officer that shot him certainly sounded surprised/panicked that she had done so. She also had her dash cam turned off. The dash cam vid is from the second officer on the scene's vehicle. However, non-compliance is not a death warrant. These officers were not responding to a crime in progress. They were responding to a call of a stalled vehicle in the road.

But yes, the fact he was tazed and shot certainly makes it look like the officer fucked up.
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Posted 9/20/16

Xxanthar wrote:

22 seconds into that video is when the guy decided to forfeit his life. Some may argue it was when he started walking away from the officer at the start, but at :22 it's all but over when he lowers his hand to reach into the car or for his belt. The other cops just arrived on the scene and leave their cars as the man walked to the car and joined the other cop just as the suspect is seen reaching. Once this goes to trial and they sync it up with the officer yelling "Get on the ground" or something to that affect, repeatedly, and the shouts of "get your hands up" as he reaches... well there is no way in hell those cops are going to be found guilty of any wrong doing.

These events unfold in seconds...You have 5 different people all thinking and reacting to different things. An officer only pulls his weapon when he is about to use it because he fears for his life, or the life of a bystander. It's not TV where the cops wave the gun around like an idiot and fire into the air, or try to kneecap a suspect. If a cop draws his weapon you better believe he will use it. If he does fire his weapon, unless he has bad aim, you are going to die. Police ALWAYS shoot to kill. That's how they are trained, your skin color doesn't make a shit bit of difference.


So should I just copy and paste "proportionate response" to all of these until it gets through your head?
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Posted 9/20/16
I think that this was a poor judgement call that went against protocol, but from what I can tell, it was not criminal.
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Posted 9/20/16 , edited 9/20/16

qwueri wrote:
There badly needs to be an effective taser or other option other than fatally shooting suspects.
Knock them down then cuff'ed

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Posted 9/20/16

runec wrote:

The officer that shot him certainly sounded surprised/panicked that she had done so. She also had her dash cam turned off. The dash cam vid is from the second officer on the scene's vehicle. However, non-compliance is not a death warrant. These officers were not responding to a crime in progress. They were responding to a call of a stalled vehicle in the road.

But yes, the fact he was tazed and shot certainly makes it look like the officer fucked up.


Sure, but in this day and age where people have been setting up ambushes for cops I'd be super suspicious of even a stalled car in the road. That's part of what I meant when I mentioned things being tense on both sides earlier. Bad cops get a lot of media attention. Communities feels threatened and suspicious of all cops. Cops encounter more and more people who resist even simple commands. People retaliate against cops by seeking them out to kill them. Cops now fear every encounter even more than before not knowing what they are going to deal with. Uneasy cops get rougher with people and handle things poorly. It's a cycle I don't see ending any time soon.
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Posted 9/20/16

EichiXIII wrote:


runec wrote:

The officer that shot him certainly sounded surprised/panicked that she had done so. She also had her dash cam turned off. The dash cam vid is from the second officer on the scene's vehicle. However, non-compliance is not a death warrant. These officers were not responding to a crime in progress. They were responding to a call of a stalled vehicle in the road.

But yes, the fact he was tazed and shot certainly makes it look like the officer fucked up.


Sure, but in this day and age where people have been setting up ambushes for cops I'd be super suspicious of even a stalled car in the road. That's part of what I meant when I mentioned things being tense on both sides earlier. Bad cops get a lot of media attention. Communities feels threatened and suspicious of all cops. Cops encounter more and more people who resist even simple commands. People retaliate against cops by seeking them out to kill them. Cops now fear every encounter even more than before not knowing what they are going to deal with. Uneasy cops get rougher with people and handle things poorly. It's a cycle I don't see ending any time soon.


It is an extremely shitty cycle but officers over reacting to it just makes it look all the more warranted
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Posted 9/20/16

octorockandroll wrote:


Xxanthar wrote:

22 seconds into that video is when the guy decided to forfeit his life. Some may argue it was when he started walking away from the officer at the start, but at :22 it's all but over when he lowers his hand to reach into the car or for his belt. The other cops just arrived on the scene and leave their cars as the man walked to the car and joined the other cop just as the suspect is seen reaching. Once this goes to trial and they sync it up with the officer yelling "Get on the ground" or something to that affect, repeatedly, and the shouts of "get your hands up" as he reaches... well there is no way in hell those cops are going to be found guilty of any wrong doing.

These events unfold in seconds...You have 5 different people all thinking and reacting to different things. An officer only pulls his weapon when he is about to use it because he fears for his life, or the life of a bystander. It's not TV where the cops wave the gun around like an idiot and fire into the air, or try to kneecap a suspect. If a cop draws his weapon you better believe he will use it. If he does fire his weapon, unless he has bad aim, you are going to die. Police ALWAYS shoot to kill. That's how they are trained, your skin color doesn't make a shit bit of difference.


So should I just copy and paste "proportionate response" to all of these until it gets through your head?


This ain't Canada. Shall I keep copy and paste 'Comply or Die' for you until it get's through your head? If you reach for something when a cop says "Stop. Hands up." you are going to get your ass shot. By the time the cop waits to see if you are reaching for a gun or not he could be dead. In the start of that video. If the guy just stayed there and not moved like instructed he would probably be out on bail right now. But now he's dead because he could not comprehend 2 or 3 word sentences. Just do as you are told, argue your case in court. It's such a simple thing to do.
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Posted 9/20/16

Xxanthar wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


Xxanthar wrote:

22 seconds into that video is when the guy decided to forfeit his life. Some may argue it was when he started walking away from the officer at the start, but at :22 it's all but over when he lowers his hand to reach into the car or for his belt. The other cops just arrived on the scene and leave their cars as the man walked to the car and joined the other cop just as the suspect is seen reaching. Once this goes to trial and they sync it up with the officer yelling "Get on the ground" or something to that affect, repeatedly, and the shouts of "get your hands up" as he reaches... well there is no way in hell those cops are going to be found guilty of any wrong doing.

These events unfold in seconds...You have 5 different people all thinking and reacting to different things. An officer only pulls his weapon when he is about to use it because he fears for his life, or the life of a bystander. It's not TV where the cops wave the gun around like an idiot and fire into the air, or try to kneecap a suspect. If a cop draws his weapon you better believe he will use it. If he does fire his weapon, unless he has bad aim, you are going to die. Police ALWAYS shoot to kill. That's how they are trained, your skin color doesn't make a shit bit of difference.


So should I just copy and paste "proportionate response" to all of these until it gets through your head?


This ain't Canada. Shall I keep copy and paste 'Comply or Die' for you until it get's through your head? If you reach for something when a cop says "Stop. Hands up." you are going to get your ass shot. By the time the cop waits to see if you are reaching for a gun or not he could be dead. In the start of that video. If the guy just stayed there and not moved like instructed he would probably be out on bail right now. But now he's dead because he could not comprehend 2 or 3 word sentences. Just do as you are told, argue your case in court. It's such a simple thing to do.


Actually if he had complied from the very beginning he probably would have been questioned and possibly had his car searched a bit before being let go entirely. I don't think he did anything illegal or had anything illegal in the car but I could be wrong. Maybe a ticket for not pushing his car off the road? If the cop really wanted to be a dick.
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Posted 9/20/16 , edited 9/20/16

Xxanthar wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


Xxanthar wrote:

22 seconds into that video is when the guy decided to forfeit his life. Some may argue it was when he started walking away from the officer at the start, but at :22 it's all but over when he lowers his hand to reach into the car or for his belt. The other cops just arrived on the scene and leave their cars as the man walked to the car and joined the other cop just as the suspect is seen reaching. Once this goes to trial and they sync it up with the officer yelling "Get on the ground" or something to that affect, repeatedly, and the shouts of "get your hands up" as he reaches... well there is no way in hell those cops are going to be found guilty of any wrong doing.

These events unfold in seconds...You have 5 different people all thinking and reacting to different things. An officer only pulls his weapon when he is about to use it because he fears for his life, or the life of a bystander. It's not TV where the cops wave the gun around like an idiot and fire into the air, or try to kneecap a suspect. If a cop draws his weapon you better believe he will use it. If he does fire his weapon, unless he has bad aim, you are going to die. Police ALWAYS shoot to kill. That's how they are trained, your skin color doesn't make a shit bit of difference.


So should I just copy and paste "proportionate response" to all of these until it gets through your head?


This ain't Canada. Shall I keep copy and paste 'Comply or Die' for you until it get's through your head? If you reach for something when a cop says "Stop. Hands up." you are going to get your ass shot. By the time the cop waits to see if you are reaching for a gun or not he could be dead. In the start of that video. If the guy just stayed there and not moved like instructed he would probably be out on bail right now. But now he's dead because he could not comprehend 2 or 3 word sentences. Just do as you are told, argue your case in court. It's such a simple thing to do.



runec wrote:
non-compliance is not a death warrant.


"Comply or die" is not anywhere in US legislation. Proportionate response is. Your argument is so idiotic it isn't even funny anymore

EDIT: Seriously, "Comply or die"?? Yeah, you don't sound like a totalitarean at all.
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Posted 9/20/16

octorockandroll wrote:
It means the punishment has to be proportionate to the crime comitted. So instead of shooting at the unarmed person for walking away from them, the reasonable cop would tackle or taser him. A police officer is only allowed to shoot when their life or that of a civilianis directly being threatened.


Small correction: A police officer is only allowed to shoot when they reasonably believe that their life or that of a civilian is being threatened.

Its more about reasonable belief than actual danger. In this situation, you have someone not complying, and then reaching down against orders. That isn't really cut and dry one way or the other. I wouldn't be surprised if protocol stated that a different line of action should have been taken pre-emptively, but like I said earlier, I don't believe this would be considered criminal.
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