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Post Reply Decline in good anime
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Posted 10/4/16

Nogara-san wrote:


LavenderMintRose wrote:

From my perspective? The old action-oriented shonen things are no more to my taste than the gaggles of moe girls that they do now.

Honestly, I don't think "anime" has ever been good, in the sense that I don't think there was ever a season where the majority of shows were decent. But I don't think there's ever been a season/year/however it's counted of any medium where more than half were decent. Unless there were only three shows and two were good, I don't think it's possible, unless your tastes are so broad that you really have no taste to speak of.

You know what, though? I do have to say one thing about anime recently.

A few people complain about too much yaoi/reverse-harem/sports/male-fanservice anime, and... I love bishonen - pretty boys are one of the things that a show must have to keep me interested - but I really hate the recent shows like that, with two exceptions - K, and Kamigami no Asobi. Because the rest have no plot. Okay, I guess you could call "sports" a plot, but it's not a good plot. ... Everyone hated Valvrave, but I can't get enough of those guys. You know, the team L-elf "betrayed"? Except they had about 30 seconds of screentime per episode. If the show were about them, it would have been good.

What needs to happen is for there to be a year with multiple shows with plots like Code Geass and K, but with more bishonen fanservice/yaoi. Kamigami no Asobi could have been that good - and as it stands, it's better than almost everything else, but it could have been even better if it weren't constrained to that harem format.

Then again, I like these shows because they're optimistic and not overly violent, but the trend seems to be the opposite of that nowadays, anyway...



Then you get fanboys screaming 'FUJOSHIT EWW' like they're already doing with Touken Ranbu...


So? When you have a ton of girls, you have people screaming, "Moe, ew!", and, you know.... why do you even care? Why does it matter if someone, somewhere, doesn't like what you like? If they're making it - which they are - it's because it sells, and unless those people are going to go out and buy figures of... I dunno, whatever "dark, gritty" blood-n-guts fest they like instead of the gaggle-of-cuties shows, enough to eclipse the amount of Free! and KuroBas merchandise that gets bought, they're not actually going to stop making cute-guys shows.

And the dark-and-gritty stuff isn't going to sell as much merchandise because cute characters create passion. That's what moe means. It's the same regardless of gender, and it's the same with good shows as with shows that have nothing but the moe quotient. Code Geass would not be so successful if Lelouch weren't moe to someone. *glances at shelf of Lulu merchandise*

But you know what? That's okay. The world needs cute characters for fans to get passionate about. It helps when they're more than just a pretty face (like Lelouch, or like Shiro from K (in my userpic)), but you know... is it really bad for people to go crazy over a pretty face for once, instead of something scary and violent?
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i completely disagree on the its declining i just think some people are just not finding enough of what they personally like, just because alot of you hate stuff like moe or ecchi doesn't mean everyone hates it, i personally really like moe, and slice of life themed anime but really can't stand things like fighting or action themed because i personally find it over the top and boring.
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To steal an idea from another animation genre: "Come on in and join me for a piece of 'member berry pie!" There was great anime then, and there is great anime now, it is just that you have to look hard.
Kintor 
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Posted 10/4/16

blaisenun wrote:

i completely disagree on the its declining i just think some people are just not finding enough of what they personally like, just because alot of you hate stuff like moe or ecchi doesn't mean everyone hates it, i personally really like moe, and slice of life themed anime but really can't stand things like fighting or action themed because i personally find it over the top and boring.

It's rather curious though to consider why this 'fan service' dominates anime today, in contrast to the creative output of other industries. After all, the pinnacle of live action shows today are things like Game of Thrones and House of Card, dark and cynical shows with a penchant for brutal violence. Comic books are also trending towards a darker tone, super heroes are dropping like flies; while Doctor Doom is about to get his own comic book run and the last time that happened was over 20 years ago. Yet the experience of anime doesn't reflect this trend, where these fan service shows seem more a blind denial of violence and complex moral issues, even as they flagrantly ignore ideas of personal decency. How strange it is that anime should follow this path, collapsing into a sort of infantile hedonism.
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Posted 10/4/16

Kintor wrote:


blaisenun wrote:

i completely disagree on the its declining i just think some people are just not finding enough of what they personally like, just because alot of you hate stuff like moe or ecchi doesn't mean everyone hates it, i personally really like moe, and slice of life themed anime but really can't stand things like fighting or action themed because i personally find it over the top and boring.

It's rather curious though to consider why this 'fan service' dominates anime today, in contrast to the creative output of other industries. After all, the pinnacle of live action shows today are things like Game of Thrones and House of Card, dark and cynical shows with a penchant for brutal violence. Comic books are also trending towards a darker tone, super heroes are dropping like flies; while Doctor Doom is about to get his own comic book run and the last time that happened was over 20 years ago. Yet the experience of anime doesn't reflect this trend, where these fan service shows seem more a blind denial of violence and complex moral issues, even as they flagrantly ignore ideas of personal decency. How strange it is that anime should follow this path, collapsing into a sort of infantile hedonism.


Why is violence any better, though? The dark and violent trends are just a different sort of immaturity.

And there's more than enough dark and violent anime, as well. Tokyo Ghoul is very popular, both in Japan and elsewhere. Attack on Titan, too.

And not every story has to be about complex moral issues. There's room for things like that, and there's room for lighter things as well. And complex stories don't have to be violent.

Also, Game of Thrones doesn't deal with "complex moral issues" - it throws the whole idea out of the window, saying "Hey, everyone's evil, so let's just have fun watching them kill each other". Which... shouldn't be fun, but that's beside the point.

The best of anime handles actual complex issues more more skillfully than that, and with a lot less blood and guts. The best books do, too, but those aren't the ones that get popular enough to get made into TV series.
Kintor 
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Posted 10/4/16

LavenderMintRose wrote:

Why is violence any better, though? The dark and violent trends are just a different sort of immaturity.

And there's more than enough dark and violent anime, as well. Tokyo Ghoul is very popular, both in Japan and elsewhere. Attack on Titan, too.

And not every story has to be about complex moral issues. There's room for things like that, and there's room for lighter things as well. And complex stories don't have to be violent.

Also, Game of Thrones doesn't deal with "complex moral issues" - it throws the whole idea out of the window, saying "Hey, everyone's evil, so let's just have fun watching them kill each other". Which... shouldn't be fun, but that's beside the point.

The best of anime handles actual complex issues more more skillfully than that, and with a lot less blood and guts. The best books do, too, but those aren't the ones that get popular enough to get made into TV series.

There's no denying that depictions of violence are a form of entertainment, much like the gladiatorial games of Ancient Rome people today a thrilled by stylised violence in the media that they consume. However, to call violence immature misses the point completely. After all, its parents who often seek to shield their children from violent imagery, only permitting such indulgences once they are deemed old enough to understand the implications behind such graphics violence. Yet in anime today we often see the opposite being promoted, where grown adults would prefer entertainment about stunted children doing perverted things in a world inexplicably free of violence and moral dilemmas. Honestly, it's truly baffling to see modern anime develop like this, a clear anomaly compared to the popular culture being created in other industries.
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Posted 10/4/16

LavenderMintRose wrote:


Nogara-san wrote:


LavenderMintRose wrote:

From my perspective? The old action-oriented shonen things are no more to my taste than the gaggles of moe girls that they do now.

Honestly, I don't think "anime" has ever been good, in the sense that I don't think there was ever a season where the majority of shows were decent. But I don't think there's ever been a season/year/however it's counted of any medium where more than half were decent. Unless there were only three shows and two were good, I don't think it's possible, unless your tastes are so broad that you really have no taste to speak of.

You know what, though? I do have to say one thing about anime recently.

A few people complain about too much yaoi/reverse-harem/sports/male-fanservice anime, and... I love bishonen - pretty boys are one of the things that a show must have to keep me interested - but I really hate the recent shows like that, with two exceptions - K, and Kamigami no Asobi. Because the rest have no plot. Okay, I guess you could call "sports" a plot, but it's not a good plot. ... Everyone hated Valvrave, but I can't get enough of those guys. You know, the team L-elf "betrayed"? Except they had about 30 seconds of screentime per episode. If the show were about them, it would have been good.

What needs to happen is for there to be a year with multiple shows with plots like Code Geass and K, but with more bishonen fanservice/yaoi. Kamigami no Asobi could have been that good - and as it stands, it's better than almost everything else, but it could have been even better if it weren't constrained to that harem format.

Then again, I like these shows because they're optimistic and not overly violent, but the trend seems to be the opposite of that nowadays, anyway...





Then you get fanboys screaming 'FUJOSHIT EWW' like they're already doing with Touken Ranbu...



So? When you have a ton of girls, you have people screaming, "Moe, ew!", and, you know.... why do you even care? Why does it matter if someone, somewhere, doesn't like what you like? If they're making it - which they are - it's because it sells, and unless those people are going to go out and buy figures of... I dunno, whatever "dark, gritty" blood-n-guts fest they like instead of the gaggle-of-cuties shows, enough to eclipse the amount of Free! and KuroBas merchandise that gets bought, they're not actually going to stop making cute-guys shows.

And the dark-and-gritty stuff isn't going to sell as much merchandise because cute characters create passion. That's what moe means. It's the same regardless of gender, and it's the same with good shows as with shows that have nothing but the moe quotient. Code Geass would not be so successful if Lelouch weren't moe to someone. *glances at shelf of Lulu merchandise*

But you know what? That's okay. The world needs cute characters for fans to get passionate about. It helps when they're more than just a pretty face (like Lelouch, or like Shiro from K (in my userpic)), but you know... is it really bad for people to go crazy over a pretty face for once, instead of something scary and violent?



Should've clarified that this was simply just an observation I've seen and not how I actually feel. I actually find the hatred somewhat amusing; all that energy and one would rather scream how all anime sucks because whatever fad is hot now has taken over anime.

I like all sorts of series from cute to gritty to even an occasional titty show. I can always find at least one or two things I like every season. I mean, there's stuff out there, but no one wants to look.

Japan don't make the animu just to satisfy the West, which is the vibe I get sometimes from all over the web

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Posted 10/4/16
I agree with this.You get interesting ones here and there but most of time time it's just weird slice of life/Ecchi things that are jam packed with unnecessary fan service. I've read tons of manga with really cool story lines but I don't see them being turned into anime which is unfortunate.
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Posted 10/4/16

Kintor wrote:


Nogara-san wrote:

Go watch Mob Psycho 100 or Space Patrol Luluco.


I agree that some shows need a course in screenwriting, but fanservice in both genders is what sells the most.

I get what you're saying but I disagree with the notion that fan service is the most profitable kind of anime possible. It's a fact that the anime industry today is nothing like it was 15 or even 10 years ago. Where once a anime could be reasonably expected to run for 25 or even 50 episodes a new anime today is lucky to surpass a mere 12 episodes. To top it all off most modern anime is also operating at a much lower budget, hence the predominance of uninspired fan service shows. This means we are getting less anime as a whole per series and typically at a lower quality than before. The business model for most anime is broken; these fan service shows aren't pioneering new heights of profitably for the industry they're just scavengers fighting over the ruins of a once great industry.


I understand what you're saying and I kind of agree with you to a point.

It's just not profitable anymore to run a 25-50 episode series unless it's guaranteed to be a hit. That's why we get the 12 episode seasons anymore.; if it hits, then we get a second season along with merchandise to take up some of the costs.

As for things being lower quality....I wouldn't exactly say Trigger or the late Manglobe puts out crap. Attack on Titan, SAO and even One Piunch Man, three of the biggest recent hits, weren't exactly crappily animated. I get the frustration sometimes but my point again is that there ARE good shows out there. One has to look.

As for fanservice dominating the scene today...as long as there's media around, sex will always sell. And pretty sure there's always been fanservice around 10-15 years ago...
Kintor 
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Posted 10/4/16

Nogara-san wrote:

I understand what you're saying and I kind of agree with you to a point.

It's just not profitable anymore to run a 25-50 episode series unless it's guaranteed to be a hit. That's why we get the 12 episode seasons anymore.; if it hits, then we get a second season along with merchandise to take up some of the costs.

As for things being lower quality....I wouldn't exactly say Trigger or the late Manglobe puts out crap. Attack on Titan, SAO and even One Piunch Man, three of the biggest recent hits, weren't exactly crappily animated. I get the frustration sometimes but my point again is that there ARE good shows out there. One has to look.

As for fanservice dominating the scene today...as long as there's media around, sex will always sell. And pretty sure there's always been fanservice around 10-15 years ago...

Yeah... I also want to draw a distinction between fan service and sex. Plenty of movies and TV shows have explicit sexual content to one degree or another. Yet the kind of fan service being promoted in many modern anime goes beyond what would be regard as normal or broadly crowd pleasing in other forms of entertainment. I mean, have you seen Crunchyroll's Autumn 2016 line-up? A psychiatrist would have a field day with some of the frankly bizarre scenarios concocted for these fan service anime, not least of all because the characters in these fan service extravaganzas are commonly depicted as children in physical appearance if not mannerism. Sex has nothing to do with it, exporting so much fan service content just gives anime a bad name.
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Posted 10/4/16

Kintor wrote:

It's rather curious though to consider why this 'fan service' dominates anime today, in contrast to the creative output of other industries. After all, the pinnacle of live action shows today are things like Game of Thrones and House of Card, dark and cynical shows with a penchant for brutal violence. Comic books are also trending towards a darker tone, super heroes are dropping like flies; while Doctor Doom is about to get his own comic book run and the last time that happened was over 20 years ago. Yet the experience of anime doesn't reflect this trend, where these fan service shows seem more a blind denial of violence and complex moral issues, even as they flagrantly ignore ideas of personal decency. How strange it is that anime should follow this path, collapsing into a sort of infantile hedonism.


First of all, the trend you mentioned is part of American media. Western anime fans need to remember that we're not the target audience of anime. It is made by and for Japanese people, so there's always going to be a cultural divide. That's part of what makes it interesting to me.
Secondly, "infantile hedonism" is a pretty great description of the most blatant fan service shows, but you'll find multiple shows every season that don't fit that description, I guarantee it.
We just got Mob Psycho 100, 91 Days, Orange, etc. in the summer season. It's not all bad.
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Posted 10/4/16 , edited 10/4/16

Kintor wrote:


Nogara-san wrote:

I understand what you're saying and I kind of agree with you to a point.

It's just not profitable anymore to run a 25-50 episode series unless it's guaranteed to be a hit. That's why we get the 12 episode seasons anymore.; if it hits, then we get a second season along with merchandise to take up some of the costs.

As for things being lower quality....I wouldn't exactly say Trigger or the late Manglobe puts out crap. Attack on Titan, SAO and even One Piunch Man, three of the biggest recent hits, weren't exactly crappily animated. I get the frustration sometimes but my point again is that there ARE good shows out there. One has to look.

As for fanservice dominating the scene today...as long as there's media around, sex will always sell. And pretty sure there's always been fanservice around 10-15 years ago...

Yeah... I also want to draw a distinction between fan service and sex. Plenty of movies and TV shows have explicit sexual content to one degree or another. Yet the kind of fan service being promoted in many modern anime goes beyond what would be regard as normal or broadly crowd pleasing in other forms of entertainment. I mean, have you seen Crunchyroll's Autumn 2016 line-up? A psychiatrist would have a field day with some of the frankly bizarre scenarios concocted for these fan service anime, not least of all because the characters in these fan service extravaganzas are commonly depicted as children in physical appearance if not mannerism. Sex has nothing to do with it, exporting so much fan service content just gives anime a bad name.


Anime is not made for Western fans exclusively. I know it's crappy and annoying to see fanservicey stuff...but this is WHAT SELLS IN JAPAN.


First of all, the trend you mentioned is part of American media. Western anime fans need to remember that we're not the target audience of anime. It is made by and for Japanese people, so there's always going to be a cultural divide. That's part of what makes it interesting to me.
Secondly, "infantile hedonism" is a pretty great description of the most blatant fan service shows, but you'll find multiple shows every season that don't fit that description, I guarantee it.
We just got Mob Psycho 100, 91 Days, Orange, etc. in the summer season. It's not all bad.



Seriously...not everything is all tits and ass.
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Posted 10/4/16 , edited 10/4/16

Kintor wrote:


There's no denying that depictions of violence are a form of entertainment, much like the gladiatorial games of Ancient Rome people today a thrilled by stylised violence in the media that they consume. However, to call violence immature misses the point completely.

And what point is that, exactly? Are you saying all violent media - from Game of Thrones to Tarantino to Hellsing to the superheroes you mention "dropping like flies" - are all trying to make the same point and are all equally successful at doing so? Because I don't think that's true.
I think that shock for shock's sake is immature, whether it's with violence, with excrement, with insult, whatever.
I think that some media have used shocking visuals and violence to get a point across. I doubt that it's the best way to get a point across, though - "French director François Truffaut ... noted that you simply cannot make a truly anti-war movie." (source: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoNotDoThisCoolThing) The audience will find it exciting and miss the point, because no matter how realistic you make it, they're not actually there, and they're not going to get the horror of it.


After all, its parents who often seek to shield their children from violent imagery, only permitting such indulgences once they are deemed old enough to understand the implications behind such graphics violence. Yet in anime today we often see the opposite being promoted, where grown adults would prefer entertainment about stunted children doing perverted things in a world inexplicably free of violence and moral dilemmas. Honestly, it's truly baffling to see modern anime develop like this, a clear anomaly compared to the popular culture being created in other industries.


I'm not sure what your point is here, and I'm not sure which shows you're referring to. Out of the fall season, I only see one show that even mildly fits that description, and most certainly are not "stunted children".
I don't see anything "psychologists would have a field day" over unless they're entirely the wrong sort of psychologists. You realize Freud has been thoroughly discredited, don't you?


...in a world inexplicably free of violence and moral dilemmas.


How is it "inexplicable" that average middle school students aren't soldiers?
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Posted 10/4/16

Yeah... I also want to draw a distinction between fan service and sex. Plenty of movies and TV shows have explicit sexual content to one degree or another. Yet the kind of fan service being promoted in many modern anime goes beyond what would be regard as normal or broadly crowd pleasing in other forms of entertainment. I mean, have you seen Crunchyroll's Autumn 2016 line-up? A psychiatrist would have a field day with some of the frankly bizarre scenarios concocted for these fan service anime, not least of all because the characters in these fan service extravaganzas are commonly depicted as children in physical appearance if not mannerism. Sex has nothing to do with it, exporting so much fan service content just gives anime a bad name.


You sound like those people who decry all anime as nothing more as either loliporn or violence porn.
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Posted 10/4/16
decline in good posts, is more like it.
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