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Post Reply GD has become awful these days
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Posted 10/29/16 , edited 10/29/16

cdarklock wrote:

This would mostly go away if we had a special forum only for Premium members.


There is one: http://www.crunchyroll.com/group/CR_Premium_Members/forum, and it's easy to get to from the main forum page:




HolyDrumstick wrote:
...

I mean, you post something linking to a Patreon account, it gets shut down....


It wasn't shut down. It was moved to the appropriate forum, since you were asking for advice. I believe it was started in General Discussion:

/forumtopic-969601/how-to-use-patreon-effectively

Your other thread regarding using patreon from around the same time wasn't touched by mods, from what I can tell, and was left in Creative Corner where you posted it.

/forumtopic-969595/so-i-started-a-patreon-account-for-writing-how-stupid-is-that



...

There's also a number of other issues I've had involving a very blatant bias, disguised as having no other choice.
...

the entire reason CR no longer has my money is because their forums have terrible management by extremely biased mods (one in particular).


I will be trying to read more detail in that other thread where I noticed you made the same claim a couple of times, but I'm still not sure I'll be able to figure out just what you think my bias is.

Everyone does have biases, of course, but in terms of the decisions I make about what threads get closed, what posts get deleted or edited, I try to keep my opinion about the views expressed in the post out of my judgment. I leave many threads open where the opinions being expressed disturb, sadden, or anger me. I close threads only when I can clearly articulate why, and I usually give those reasons when I close.

Here are two "biases" I have which do affect my moderating decisions, but they are consistent with CR's moderating guidelines.

1) I'm a believer in the sentiment expressed by Evelyn Beatrice Hall illustrating Voltaire's belief "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Of course, in terms of CR forum threads, I probably would not defend to the death, and I don't believe that saying absolutely anything in absolutely any way is appropriate for the forums. We have Site Rules and Forum Guidelines that lay out the basic parameters of what's appropriate, but we rely on context and our own judgment to determine if moderator action is appropriate. We have a diverse group of members and we allow for a wide range of expression; inevitably that is going to lead to some differences of opinion as to whether or not action is needed or exactly what action is appropriate.

2) I do think it is worse to insult, ridicule, mock and attack other users, than to state an unpopular opinion, even if the unpopular opinion is one that I disagree with or that is nearly taboo.

Am I too lenient sometimes? Do I sometimes make a decision that with a little more thought or later knowledge, even I might I agree was not the very best decision? Sure. Does it happen with a frequency or to a degree that I deserve to be vilified in the way you've started to do? I don't think so.
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Posted 10/29/16

lorreen wrote:


cdarklock wrote:

This would mostly go away if we had a special forum only for Premium members.


There is one: http://www.crunchyroll.com/group/CR_Premium_Members/forum, and it's easy to get to from the main forum page:




HolyDrumstick wrote:
...

I mean, you post something linking to a Patreon account, it gets shut down....


It wasn't shut down. It was moved to the appropriate forum, since you were asking for advice. I believe it was started in General Discussion:

/forumtopic-969601/how-to-use-patreon-effectively

Your other thread regarding using patreon from around the same time wasn't touched by mods, from what I can tell, and was left in Creative Corner where you posted it.

/forumtopic-969595/so-i-started-a-patreon-account-for-writing-how-stupid-is-that



...

There's also a number of other issues I've had involving a very blatant bias, disguised as having no other choice.
...

the entire reason CR no longer has my money is because their forums have terrible management by extremely biased mods (one in particular).


I will be trying to read more detail in that other thread where I noticed you made the same claim a couple of times, but I'm still not sure I'll be able to figure out just what you think my bias is.

Everyone does have biases, of course, but in terms of the decisions I make about what threads get closed, what posts get deleted or edited, I try to keep my opinion about the views expressed in the post out of my judgment. I leave many threads open where the opinions being expressed disturb, sadden, or anger me. I close threads only when I can clearly articulate why, and I usually give those reasons when I close.

Here are two "biases" I have which do affect my moderating decisions, but they are consistent with CR's moderating guidelines.

1) I'm a believer in the sentiment expressed by Evelyn Beatrice Hall illustrating Voltaire's belief "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Of course, in terms of CR forum threads, I probably would not defend to the death, and I don't believe that saying absolutely anything in absolutely any way is appropriate for the forums. We have Site Rules and Forum Guidelines that lay out the basic parameters of what's appropriate, but we rely on context and our own judgment to determine if moderator action is appropriate. We have a diverse group of members and we allow for a wide range of expression; inevitably that is going to lead to some differences of opinion as to whether or not action is needed or exactly what action is appropriate.

2) I do think it is worse to insult, ridicule, mock and attack other users, than to state an unpopular opinion, even if the unpopular opinion is one that I disagree with or that is nearly taboo.

Am I too lenient sometimes? Do I sometimes make a decision that with a little more thought or later knowledge, even I might I agree was not the very best decision? Sure. Does it happen with a frequency or to a degree that I deserve to be vilified in the way you've started to do? I don't think so.






Re: Locked Thread Jun 2, 2016
From: lorreen Premium Member To: HolyDrumstick
Well yeah. Your post got reported, but when I looked through the whole thread I definitely saw stuff that was just as bad or worse. That's why I just locked it, because I didn't have the time this morning to determine what should stay and what should go (and probably mess up the whole thread because of the never-fixed bug if I did delete stuff) and what exactly to say to folks.

My plan right now is not to delete anything already posted, but to add a note to remind folks to keep a polite tone, and to stay focused on the key issue of the thread.

Soon...

Lorreen

> Man. Just lol.
>
> Sorry, I get told that I'm a caveman and should join ISIS, and I'm in trouble for saying I don't want dicks in the shower with my daughters and that he was a waste of effort?
>
> Well, see, here's the thing. I don't want dicks is the showers with my underage daughters, and I was wasting effort trying to make that person understand that.
>
> So, I'd like post it again, in the very same manner. So, keep your mod note to yourself.
>
> Cheers.




Re: Locked Thread 6/2/16
From: HolyDrumstick To: lorreen
Man. Just lol.

Sorry, I get told that I'm a caveman and should join ISIS, and I'm in trouble for saying I don't want dicks in the shower with my daughters and that he was a waste of effort?

Well, see, here's the thing. I don't want dicks is the showers with my underage daughters, and I was wasting effort trying to make that person understand that.

So, I'd like to post it again, in the very same manner. So, keep your mod note to yourself.

Cheers.


And here's the post I mentioned that was outright insulting that loreen STILL didn't remove or even enforce disciplinary action for:


Ranwolf wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:

. You are a waste of effort.


Why because I won't agree to your outdated viewpoints. I am rather glad of that fact, it'd worry me greatly if I agreed with a cave man like you. Take your useless and destructive viewpoints and join ISIS if you think the evolution of society is such a bad thing.


Feel free to click the link to the original, because it's still there in its entirety. Except my stuff she edited. Though she said she could not edit, due to a bug, she did actually edit, removing several of my posts along with their points.

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Posted 10/29/16
Not to mention posts I've reported in another thread, which you've not bothered to address.

It all paints itself into a pretty little picture, doesn't it.
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Posted 10/29/16 , edited 10/31/16

HolyDrumstick wrote:
.....And here's the post I mentioned that was outright insulting that loreen STILL didn't remove or even enforce disciplinary action for:
...

Feel free to click the link to the original, because it's still there in its entirety. Except my stuff she edited. Though she said she could not edit, due to a bug, she did actually edit, removing several of my posts along with their points.


I initially did not want to delete posts because it messes up the order of subsequent posts. When things did not improve after I updated the opening post and made a post of my own, I decided it was necessary in spite of the consequences.

I did not know until you mentioned it in the mods/troll-thread-spam thread that you were carrying resentment about this incident from June. I don't think the incident is evidence of bias, but I am sorry if my actions made you feel you were treated unfairly. It was not my intention. After looking at the thread and my PM history, here's how it looks from my perspective.

-You started a thread posing a general question about people taking offense.

-The thread came to my attention because someone reported a post of yours (which I did not delete or edit:
/forumtopic-953781/i-dont-mean-to-offend?pg=5#53976321.

-When I visited the thread I saw that it had become filled with folks becoming increasingly disrespectful and attacking each other.

-I locked the thread temporarily. When you asked me about the lock I shared some of my thoughts about it with you, and mentioned that I'd noticed it because of the report, and I said (about your post that had been reported) that "using crass language in examples doesn't actually help the tone of things."

-I reopened the thread without deleting anything because I felt that deleting would be excessively disruptive given the scope of the problem, and I asked folks to proceed more politely going forward, and to stick to the general issue instead of continuing the debate from another thread where you had been conversing with people.

-They didn't, and you didn't, so I deleted a bunch of posts--including many from you and one other user.

- I kept both your post mentioned above, and Ranwolf's reply to it that you have mentioned here because it seemed more like a tit for tat, water under the bridge by that point, and not really part of the conversation that was really causing problems in the thread. I had no idea that would leave you feeling poorly treated. Ranwolf has certainly received PMs from me about some of his posts where he insults others (and he's been banned at least once), and while what he said to you in that thread was insulting, my focus was on other things going on in the thread so about that particular exchange you basically both got a pass. My apologies if it did not look that way

-You seemed very upset about the deletions I did end up making and seemed to feel that in doing so I had trashed the thread, so in the end I closed the thread, because that seemed to be what you wanted.

You didn't receive any disciplinary action. You received a few PMs discussing the problem with the thread, and you received a notification that I'd deleted some of your posts and why. There was no ban, there was nothing we consider a warning written on your record. In fact, I've written nothing "on your record" about you.


HolyDrumstick wrote:

Not to mention posts I've reported in another thread, which you've not bothered to address.


You mean posts you've reported in another thread which I and other moderators have not addressed yet. We'e busy, we have limited time, and on behalf of all of us, I apologize for the delay. I'm sure someone will get around to those reports before too very long.

That's really all I have to say, and I'm not going to converse back and forth saying more about it.
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Posted 10/29/16

lorreen wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:
.....And here's the post I mentioned that was outright insulting that loreen STILL didn't remove or even enforce disciplinary action for:
...

Feel free to click the link to the original, because it's still there in its entirety. Except my stuff she edited. Though she said she could not edit, due to a bug, she did actually edit, removing several of my posts along with their points.


I initially did not want to delete posts because it messes up the order of subsequent posts. When things did not improve after I updated the opening post and made a post of my own, I decided it was necessary in spite of the consequences.

I did not know until you mentioned it in the mods/troll-thread-spam thread that you were carrying resentment about this incident from June. I don't think the incident is evidence of bias, but I am sorry if my actions made you feel you were treated unfairly. It was not my intention. After looking at the thread and my PM history, here's how it looks from my perspective.

-You started a thread posing a general question about people taking offense.

-The thread came to my attention because someone reported a post of yours (which I did not delete or edit:
/forumtopic-953781/i-dont-mean-to-offend?pg=5#53976321.

-When I visited the thread I saw that it had become filled with folks becoming increasingly disrespectful and attacking each other.

-I locked the thread temporarily. When you asked me about the lock I shared some of my thoughts about it with you, and mentioned that I'd noticed it because of the report, and I said (about your post that had been reported) that "using crass language in examples doesn't actually help the tone of things."

-I reopened the thread without deleting anything because I felt that deleting would be excessively disruptive given the scope of the problem, and I asked folks to proceed more politely going forward, and to stick to the general issue instead of continuing the debate from another thread where you had been conversing with people.

-They didn't, and you didn't, so I deleted a bunch of posts--including many from you and one other user.

- I kept both your post mentioned above, and Ranwolf's reply to it that you have mentioned here because it seemed more like a tit for tat, water under the bridge by that point, and not really part of the conversation that was really causing problems in the thread. I had no idea that would leave you feeling poorly treated. Ranwolf has certainly received PMs from me about some of his posts where he insults others (and he's been banned at least once), and while what he said to you in that thread was insulting, my focus was on other things going on in the thread so about that particular exchange you basically both got a pass. My apologies if it did not look that way

-You seemed very upset about the deletions I did end up making and seemed to feel that in doing so I had trashed the thread, so in the end I closed the thread, because that seemed to be what you wanted.

You didn't receive any disciplinary action. You received a few PMs discussing the problem with the thread, and you received a notification that I'd deleted some of your posts and why. There was no ban, there was nothing we consider a warning written on your record. In fact, I've written nothing "on your record" about you.


HolyDrumstick wrote:

Not to mention posts I've reported in another thread, which you've not bothered to address.


You mean posts you've reported in another thread which I and other moderators have not addressed yet. We'e busy, we have limited time, and on behalf of all of us, I apologize for the delay. I'm sure someone will get around to those reports before too very long.

That's really all I have to say, and I'm not going to converse back and forth saying more about it.


That's a nice story.
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Posted 10/29/16 , edited 10/31/16

lorreen wrote:
Here are two "biases" I have which do affect my moderating decisions, but they are consistent with CR's moderating guidelines.

1) I'm a believer in the sentiment expressed by Evelyn Beatrice Hall illustrating Voltaire's belief "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Of course, in terms of CR forum threads, I probably would not defend to the death, and I don't believe that saying absolutely anything in absolutely any way is appropriate for the forums. We have Site Rules and Forum Guidelines that lay out the basic parameters of what's appropriate, but we rely on context and our own judgment to determine if moderator action is appropriate. We have a diverse group of members and we allow for a wide range of expression; inevitably that is going to lead to some differences of opinion as to whether or not action is needed or exactly what action is appropriate.

2) I do think it is worse to insult, ridicule, mock and attack other users, than to state an unpopular opinion, even if the unpopular opinion is one that I disagree with or that is nearly taboo.

Am I too lenient sometimes? Do I sometimes make a decision that with a little more thought or later knowledge, even I might I agree was not the very best decision? Sure. Does it happen with a frequency or to a degree that I deserve to be vilified in the way you've started to do? I don't think so.

Since you believe in expressing opinions, I'll express mine, and it's one I've expressed before.
I believe the problems of "bias" you have been accused of stem from possibly belonging to a certain group that wishfully believes they can be put in a High Special Snowflake-Princess position of power to Make All the Bad Mean Bullying People go away all by themselves, and personally make sure that the Good Misunderstood Different People are loved, cared for, protected, and get to watch any Mean People be handed swift judgment and punishment, happily ever after, where All You Need Is Equality and Love.
You know who I'm talking about, and you know we're up to our eyeballs with such people among the female fans on this anime board. It's a common wished-for Utopia.

Unfortunately, it's not the world functional people, especially adult ones, live in. It's a hard world out there, and being hard professionally does not mean that you have to be a hard person. It just means a little professionalism to some higher ideal of what the job was about.
As I've said, I come from the days of Usenet. On Usenet, there WAS no moderation, and the clowns all came out of their little car, whooping, somersaulting and bopping everyone on the head with big clown-hammers.
The minute there is a HINT that conversation will be unmoderated, that is the "bang!" of a starting pistol for a lot of junior high-school kids--and a lot of foreigners who laugh at Americans every time they see Donald Trump on their international news or a Batman movie at their theaters--to try and "shock" anonymous people with the promise of anonymity. Annnnd...they're off.

We had something like that a hundred and fifty years ago--It was called "Dodge City", and it usually happened when word spread that there was no sheriff in town. Property values usually plummeted shortly afterwards.
Lorreen, we've said it and we mean it. You're too soft-hearted, and in your job, that's no compliment. In fact, it's a fatal flaw.

You have to ask, what do you come to this Forum for? Cheap gags? Poking each other like good manly wags? Real conversation? Anime conversation? Political discussion? "General" observations?
If you prize Opinions so much, it first helps to know what an actual one is, and said background helps you tell what an actual one ISN'T.
It would have been so easy--so easy, right from the very beginning--to say "Deyre, we love ya, but you're not contributing to the general conversation, so you're not following the rules."
It's happened before. There's precedent aplenty. Did Silversongwriter use any foul language or attack any other posters when he would start twelve headers a day with "How do you like your tacos, hot and spicy?" No...That was the gag, ho ho, nyuk nyuk. But it didn't stop him from half a dozen bans--which were only little temporary "interruptions" to his schedule, where he would come back immediately to where he left off--including that dearly wished-for BIG ONE. And oh, how we sang the Moderator's praises. Because we were that fed up.
It's a little thing Spock used to say: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or, Lorreen, the one. That's what Vulcans call "logic".

But no. You had to turn it personal. Because--for reasons theorized above--you thought it was an issue of Being Persecuted and Bullied, instead of doing the job that you had taken on.
Well, we're not such bad people. We've known you long enough to welcome you back, if you try a little harder, and help fight a little harder for what we all come here for...Frankly, we don't have much choice, and it's not like Powers That Be here are going out of their way to give us one.
Meaning: Save the Rainbow Rallies for Main Street. When you're here, DO. YOUR. F***IN'. JOB.
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Posted 10/29/16
ive been trying to be better
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Posted 10/29/16 , edited 10/31/16
GD is great for triggering people however.
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Posted 10/29/16
Don't have any other forum to check but I barely use it these days anyway. Big shame but I find this to be a problem on most forums and I don't really see any solution.
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What happened to you, GD? You used to be cool.

Oh right, you got rid of Extended Discussion - that's what happened and I just forgot

Yea, it's pretty garbage. No one with the power to fix it seems interested in trying to make it better though, so I just ignore it. Used to be a really fun place around when I joined 5 years ago, so it's kind of a shame.

You can even dig up old interesting threads, but due to how the thread organization works, it's kind of pointless since they'll just get drowned out by controversy. 'Shrug' - I can get my fix of fun community discussion from the anime section. I just wish the topics were more diverse - like... well.. like GD with an ED section.

But that's just my opinion, of course. And I'm clearly not the type of person they want hanging around in GD, apparently.
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Posted 10/29/16 , edited 10/31/16

lorreen wrote:


cdarklock wrote:

This would mostly go away if we had a special forum only for Premium members.


There is one


I was actually being sarcastic, since it's the first thing everyone suggests, and it never works. Things just stay every bit as bad.

Moderating a forum is hard. Your efforts are appreciated.
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Posted 10/29/16
When I first read the title, I thought we were talking about G-Dragon, and I was offended by your opinion. lol
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Posted 10/30/16

cdarklock wrote:
I was actually being sarcastic, since it's the first thing everyone suggests, and it never works. Things just stay every bit as bad.


Ah. okay. Thought that might be, but didn't want to assume.


Moderating a forum is hard. Your efforts are appreciated.


Is that sarcasm too?
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Posted 10/30/16

lorreen wrote:


cdarklock wrote:
Moderating a forum is hard. Your efforts are appreciated.


Is that sarcasm too?


Not one bit. And I've actually been second-guessing the word "efforts," because it sounds too much like I'm implying "well, you try." That's not what I mean at all.

It's honestly a hard job and I appreciate you for doing it. No sarcasm, and no veiled criticism either.

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Posted 10/30/16 , edited 10/30/16

KellieDee wrote:

When I first read the title, I thought we were talking about G-Dragon, and I was offended by your opinion. lol




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