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Post Reply Flying spaghetti monster and other invalid parallels
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 10/22/16
The problem with using an article of disbelief as an article of faith is just that.

In the act of assigning the condition of non-existence to an article such as FSM, it couldn't then be use again in a capacity which opposes this very condition.

Plain English version:

Let's say that I've came up with the Teleporting Giant Unicorn. I would say that it eats FSM for lunch because instead of flying, it teleports super fast and TGU would just gobble FSM up before FSM could fly anywhere.

Unfortunately, I can't convert anyone from the Church of the FSM to the Church of the TGU because

One, I don't even believe in TGU- I just made it up as a parody of FSM and

Two, people in the supposed Church of FSM don't really "believe" in FSM for pretty much the same reason so it's not like a conversion of faith anyways (unless they've managed to extend intellectual dishonesty and ignorance so far as to claim to not know the parody status of FSM)

As such, you can't compare something like FSM or TGU to something someone actually believes in the full metaphysical existence of.
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 11/4/16
Um, correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that 'a thing we don't believe in' can't be used as an example of why people don't believe in a 'thing some people believe in'?



Person A: Bigfoot is real!

Person B: Oh yeah? Flying purple pixies are real!

Person A: But nobody believes in flying purple pixies, so your example is invalid.

Person B: I've got just as much proof of pixies as you do of bigfoot...

Person A: Not the point!
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 11/4/16
But his pasta boiled for you. How can you not aknowledge FSM?
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 10/22/16

Ananisapta wrote:

Um, correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that 'a thing we don't believe in' can't be used as an example of why people don't believe in a 'thing some people believe in'?



Person A: Bigfoot is real!

Person B: Oh yeah? Flying purple pixies are real!

Person A: But nobody believes in flying purple pixies, so your example is invalid.

Person B: I've got just as much proof of pixies as you do of bigfoot...

Person A: Not the point!


No I'm saying that it couldn't be directly compared to something someone do believe in.

People believe and disbelieve things for all kinds of reasons. This isn't about anyone's reasons.

A: I believe bigfoot is real.

B: So? I believe in flying pixies and my belief is just as valid (and thus just as vapid) as yours

A: No, you don't believe in flying pixies so you can't compare your faux "belief" to mine.


edit: You are conflating the issue of belief with the veracity of said belief.


Deyre wrote:

But his pasta boiled for you. How can you not aknowledge FSM?


I acknowledge that FSM is vastly inferior to TGU
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 11/4/16

nanikore2 wrote:


Ananisapta wrote:

Um, correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that 'a thing we don't believe in' can't be used as an example of why people don't believe in a 'thing some people believe in'?



Person A: Bigfoot is real!

Person B: Oh yeah? Flying purple pixies are real!

Person A: But nobody believes in flying purple pixies, so your example is invalid.

Person B: I've got just as much proof of pixies as you do of bigfoot...

Person A: Not the point!


No I'm saying that it couldn't be directly compared to something someone do believe in.

People believe and disbelieve things for all kinds of reasons. This isn't about anyone's reasons.

A: I believe bigfoot is real.

B: So? I believe in flying pixies and my belief is just as valid (and thus just as vapid) as yours

A: No, you don't believe in flying pixies so you can't compare your faux "belief" to mine.


You are conflating the issue of belief with that of existence of the item being referenced in said belief.


Deyre wrote:

But his pasta boiled for you. How can you not aknowledge FSM?


I acknowledge that FSM is vastly inferior to TGU



Ah, I see. You are assuming that the belief or non-belief in the FSM has any relevance to the argument it is making. This is not actually the case.
The purpose of the FSM is to be a modern version of Russell's Teapot - an argument that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon those who make unfalsifiable claims, not on those who reject them. It isn't trying to compare belief systems, only evidence.
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 10/22/16

nanikore2 wrote:Unfortunately, I can't convert anyone from the Church of the FSM to the Church of the TGU because

One, I don't even believe in TGU- I just made it up as a parody of FSM and

Two, people in the supposed Church of FSM don't really "believe" in FSM for pretty much the same reason so it's not like a conversion of faith anyways (unless they've managed to extend intellectual dishonesty and ignorance so far as to claim to not know the parody status of FSM)


So, what you can't figure out how to say is, "Why are some people more secure to actually believe in something, than to believe in nothing and ridicule people who do?"
Yeah, funny thing, ain't it.
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 10/22/16

Ananisapta wrote:

Ah, I see. You are assuming that the belief or non-belief in the FSM has any relevance to the argument it is making. This is not actually the case.
The purpose of the FSM is to be a modern version of Russell's Teapot - an argument that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon those who make unfalsifiable claims, not on those who reject them. It isn't trying to compare belief systems, only evidence.


There is absolutely no shortage of people doing otherwise.

http://www.venganza.org/

edit: ....and I note that the actual originator of the idea wasn't so high-minded either in his argumentation


Ejanss wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:Unfortunately, I can't convert anyone from the Church of the FSM to the Church of the TGU because

One, I don't even believe in TGU- I just made it up as a parody of FSM and

Two, people in the supposed Church of FSM don't really "believe" in FSM for pretty much the same reason so it's not like a conversion of faith anyways (unless they've managed to extend intellectual dishonesty and ignorance so far as to claim to not know the parody status of FSM)


So, what you can't figure out how to say is, "Why are some people more secure to actually believe in something, than to believe in nothing and ridicule people who do?"
Yeah, funny thing, ain't it.


Well... I wouldn't editorialize on the modus operandi behind such a dispute, but I guess one could see it that way...

I just want to point out the invalid parallels being drawn when people abuse this sort of example.
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 10/22/16
There is been a rumor lately about the invisible pink unicorn heresy. Someone do something about it?
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 11/4/16

Deyre wrote:

There is been a rumor lately about the invisible pink unicorn heresy. Someone do something about it?


You're either lying, trying to be funny, actually trying to start the rumor, or don't know what a rumor is. Take a pick.

edit: yes NOW I'm editorializing
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Posted 10/22/16

nanikore2 wrote:


Deyre wrote:

There is been a rumor lately about the invisible pink unicorn heresy. Someone do something about it?


You're either lying, trying to be funny, actually trying to start the rumor, or don't know what a rumor is. Take a pick.

edit: yes NOW I'm editorializing


I am not being ironic. I think its fun that we have religions, the world would be boring without it. Or to give you Patton Oswalt's opinion on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w
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Posted 10/22/16

Deyre wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:


Deyre wrote:

There is been a rumor lately about the invisible pink unicorn heresy. Someone do something about it?


You're either lying, trying to be funny, actually trying to start the rumor, or don't know what a rumor is. Take a pick.

edit: yes NOW I'm editorializing


I am not being ironic. I think its fun that we have religions, the world would be boring without it. Or to give you Patton Oswalt's opinion on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w


Not fun at all. Did you know someone a very long time ago was brutally tortured and killed because a bunch of very religious people wanted this person dead when he kind of pointed out to them that basically you can't buy or "behave" your way into heaven? (extremely rough outline)

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/jesus.html

On the other hand, I'm serious because I'm being serious. Get it? Ha. Ha-ha.
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 11/4/16

nanikore2 wrote:
Unfortunately, I can't convert anyone from the Church of the FSM to the Church of the TGU because:
One, I don't even believe in TGU- I just made it up as a parody of FSM and
Two, people in the supposed Church of FSM don't really "believe" in FSM for pretty much the same reason so it's not like a conversion of faith anyways (unless they've managed to extend intellectual dishonesty and ignorance so far as to claim to not know the parody status of FSM)

As such, you can't compare something like FSM or TGU to something someone actually believes in the full metaphysical existence of.


Indeed. But then again, that doesn't mean that you can't get other people to believe in it. You totally can, if you do it convincingly enough.
That's how cults are started. And when cults get enough followers, they become religions.

The point of the FSM is that just like any other deity, whether or not it really exists is irrelevant. You can still get people to believe in it. And also the thing about Russel's Teapot that Ananisapta mentioned.

The only reason that no one believes in the FSM is because no one has ever attempted to try to make people actually believe in it. And because the guy who invented the FSM -- unlike the people who invented deities that people actually believe in -- is upfront about its intentions and how it's only a figment of his imagination.

Those are effectively the ONLY differences between the FSM and deities that people actually believe in.


--



Deyre wrote:
I am not being ironic. I think its fun that we have religions, the world would be boring without it. Or to give you Patton Oswalt's opinion on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w


Clearly you don't have a hobby to keep you occupied.
Besides, we would still have politics. Religion, more than being a source of amusement, is a source of unnecessary conflict, bigotry, discrimination and suffering.
Having one less ridiculous aspects about humanity would be a small price to pay to not having to deal with all that.
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 10/27/16

nanikore2 wrote:

Not fun at all. Did you know someone a very long time ago was brutally tortured and killed because a bunch of very religious people wanted this person dead when he kind of pointed out to them that basically you can't buy or "behave" your way into heaven? (extremely rough outline)

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/jesus.html

On the other hand, I'm serious because I'm being serious. Get it? Ha. Ha-ha.


To be fair he basically insulted the leaders alot of time and in the bible they sorta are presented as bastards. What was it again, Children of Satan lol?. Although whether the gospels are accurate description or not is another story. You can get lots of antisemitism in the new testament. One example
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16


Edit: Or to put it more better. History is written by the victors. This video gives one example of that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOtp0kjdjQA
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Posted 10/22/16 , edited 10/22/16

Deyre wrote:

To be fair he basically insulted the leaders alot of time and in the bible they sorta are presented as bastards. What was it again, Children of Satan lol?. Although whether the gospels are accurate description or not is another story. You can get lots of antisemitism in the new testament. One example
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16


That's not a valid defense. You were the one who just created a thread about how people who can't laugh at themselves or shrug off insults are stupid, and that not being able to do so is a bad thing, so you know it's not a valid defense.

It's understandable, yes. Because people are fucking dumb and stupid. But it's not a valid defense.
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Posted 10/22/16

Syndicaidramon wrote:


Deyre wrote:

To be fair he basically insulted the leaders alot of time and in the bible they sorta are presented as bastards. What was it again, Children of Satan lol?. Although whether the gospels are accurate description or not is another story. You can get lots of antisemitism in the new testament. One example
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16


That's not a valid defense. You were the one who just created a thread about how people who can't laugh at themselves or shrug off insults are stupid, and that not being able to do so is a bad thing, so you know it's not a valid defense.

It's understandable, yes. Because people are fucking dumb and stupid. But it's not a valid defense.


And i agree, but trouble makers and disturbance was more a thing back then. I am glad we dont live in a world where authoritarian rulers decides the shot and have a constitution. Unless you live in North Korea or a middle eastern or eastern european country which may have it.
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