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Post Reply What will happen after Presidential debate is over???
Posted 10/25/16
-that legal manipulations were made to make legal torturous acts ex post facto should not be in question here. it is wrong. but I view that as pander to a certain party demgraphic, and the ones who are already decided on voting for him who are correctly offended by such practices wont quite see that as a stumbling block to vote for him.

-yes most people will start saying anything to make the pain stop, you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
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Posted 10/25/16

runec wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:
So basically, he openly supporting what our CIA, NSA, and FBI have been doing forever, regardless of international law. He's supporting measures our enemies AND most allied nations have always done, secretly or otherwise.


Okay, wow. "We probably do it anyway so its fine" is not a good defense of publicly advocating war crimes as a presidential nominee.



HolyDrumstick wrote:
As far as my Christian beliefs are concerned, torture is wrong. We don't need to start making policy based on religious views, now do we?


Your Christian beliefs seem pretty convenient and your argument is absurd. "I think its wrong for religious reasons so we shouldn't do anything about it"? Can you not see the absurdity of that statement and how broadly ( and hilariously ) it could be applied?

Nevermind that you need your Christian beliefs to tell you torture is wrong. >.>



HolyDrumstick wrote:
Torture results in false positives among people with no intel. Notice I did not say innocent people.


Dude, come on, really?


NO, I'm saying the only difference is that in one situation we are being lied to and in the other we are not. Otherwise, torture and how much we do it does not change.

No, I wasn't saying that there is no argument against torture other than religious reasons. Since we don't make policy on religion, we can't use this.
You have failed to present an argument to show why it is wrong.

That's right, people with no intel, not innocent people. While innocent people do get tortured, so also do they get imprisoned, killed, etc. Those are equally wrong. The problem here is not a torture issue, when innocents are tortured, but rather an issue with being unable to determine who the enemy is.

And who's fault is that? Those who use insurgency rather than conventional warfare. How easy it would be if everyone was wearing uniforms....
Posted 10/25/16
pffffff if "terrrrrrisssssssssss" didnt have the fbi domestically and the ciamossad internationally to provide funding, training, arms, and whatever other logistical support necessary to complete a terrorist act, 99.9% of them wouldnt ever happen.
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Posted 10/25/16

RaisedInACult wrote:

pffffff if "terrrrrrisssssssssss" didnt have the fbi domestically and the ciamossad internationally to provide funding, training, arms, and whatever other logistical support necessary to complete a terrorist act, 99.9% of them wouldnt ever happen.


100% agree.

However, that also has little to do with torture.

Also, Trump supposedly wants to stop that. And we've been doing that for decades (at least in the middle east). It does need to stop, at some point. It's like we're actually "playing" war. Every time the enemy is almost out of lives, we give them a few extra to keep the game going.
Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16
sure it does, at some point, they put in enough that some momentum happens - but if the momentum doesnt quite do what its told, then....well, we havent heard of al quaeda in forever, have we now...

theres a difference between some low level army guy doing something stupid to make a detainee embarrassed, and the entirely different thing that goes on at the black sites.
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Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16

RaisedInACult wrote:
theres a difference between some low level army guy doing something stupid to make a detainee embarrassed, and the entirely different thing that goes on at the black sites.


Of course there's a difference. And of course we'd be better off if our previous administrations hadn't funded the assholes.

That doesn't make terrorists innocent or torture any less necessary.

And, NO ONE has provided a moral argument outside of religion as to why causing pain and suffering to a few is wrong, when you are saving a lot more innocent people.

All I keep getting are the same, "It's wrong." "Why can't you see it is wrong." statements without any real consideration.
Posted 10/25/16
Ah yes, the old discard one's morals to save one's morals...is that like killing capitalism to save capitalism, lol?

For some reason you have morality and religion so intimately linked in your head that it doesnt seem that you think morality can exist outside of religion.
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Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16

RaisedInACult wrote:

Ah yes, the old discard one's morals to save one's morals...is that like killing capitalism to save capitalism, lol?

For some reason you have morality and religion so intimately linked in your head that it doesnt seem that you think morality can exist outside of religion.


Again, you are making statements without providing reasoning.

Simply explain why torture is morally wrong, out side of religion, when you are saving innocent lives.

And you are not discarding morals. Torture is not morally wrong when it is done to save lives. It's a matter of weighing the blood on your hands and deciding.

Simply explain, instead of making more pointless statements.
Posted 10/25/16
while that context fits for a jack bauer episode on tv, do you really think it applies to the global war of terror?

*shrugs* all laid out in the oded yinon plan, to detstabilize the middle east for the expansion, we're getting used as the primary sword arm to make it happen.

no innocent lives have ever been saved or created by the torture of innocent or guilty persons.

and ya damned well right that's discarding morals! torture, ffs!? that basically everyone agrees is torture yet some stupid ex post facto legal decision to try and apologize for torturing, you go along with that herd and go against your religious beliefs and support torture?

what would pseudo jesus say about that???
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Posted 10/25/16
the world would explode. jk jk
runec 
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Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16

HolyDrumstick wrote:
NO, I'm saying the only difference is that in one situation we are being lied to and in the other we are not. Otherwise, torture and how much we do it does not change.

No, I wasn't saying that there is no argument against torture other than religious reasons. Since we don't make policy on religion, we can't use this.
You have failed to present an argument to show why it is wrong.


You sincerely need me to tell you why torture is wrong?

Do you also need a primer on why drowning puppies is frowned upon?




HolyDrumstick wrote:
That's right, people with no intel, not innocent people. While innocent people do get tortured, so also do they get imprisoned, killed, etc. Those are equally wrong. The problem here is not a torture issue, when innocents are tortured, but rather an issue with being unable to determine who the enemy is.

And who's fault is that? Those who use insurgency rather than conventional warfare. How easy it would be if everyone was wearing uniforms....


Torture is fine even though we can't tell who the right people to torture are and whether any of the intel we get from them is even valid as a result?

What is wrong with you? >.>

I mean you actually have me and RaisedInACult on the same side of an argument. That's how bad this is.




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Posted 10/25/16
I like to torture.
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Posted 10/25/16

RaisedInACult wrote:

while that context fits for a jack bauer episode on tv, do you really think it applies to the global war of terror?
This is an insult, not an argument.

*shrugs* all laid out in the oded yinon plan, to detstabilize the middle east for the expansion, we're getting used as the primary sword arm to make it happen.
I've already acknowledged that the funding from our past administrations was wrong, but it still has no bearing on how to handle threats in the future. This is not an argument against torture, but rather smoke and mirrors to convince someone it is wrong, because it's our fault we're at war in the first place. If this was a good argument, we should also stop taking any military action, sit back, and wait to be destroyed.

no innocent lives have ever been saved or created by the torture of innocent or guilty persons.
That's outright false. Seriously. I don't even need to pick it apart with facts, but simply point you to a general rule of thumb -- When someone states something as absolutely true, it is almost always false. In fact, this is complete bullshit that ignores war and history. Again, torture results in false information from those who do not know, but it still results in true information when that information is known. You haven't actually thought it through if you believe that people can hold out while being tortured by providing verifiably false information. YES, you will get false information, but it is usually easily recognized as such, and the true information almost always comes out, if it is known.
What you're saying has nothing to do with facts.

and ya damned well right that's discarding morals! torture, ffs!? that basically everyone agrees is torture yet some stupid ex post facto legal decision to try and apologize for torturing, you go along with that herd and go against your religious beliefs and support torture?
By the logic that torture is wrong regardless of circumstances simply because it is a terrible thing, you are also stating that surveillance is wrong, killing and therefore war is wrong, and any number of horrible things that are commonplace in war are wrong. You are basically saying that we should not fight at all. You're saying we should just let people, and ourselves, die.

By the logic you just used, no amount of aggression is justifiable.



I am not supporting torture. I'm supporting Trump's honesty about torture. I am acknowledging that it happens. I am acknowledging that Hillary also supports torture, but knows to lie about it to get support from people like you. I am acknowledging that the argument against torture is religious, and is flimsy in any other moral argument. I am telling you that you're full of shit.

Personally, I don't support torture. But, I also don't support making policy based on my religious beliefs.

In fact, following any herd is the farthest thing from what I am doing. I'm thinking for myself.

You can insert another quarter and try again, if you like. Provide a nonreligious moral argument for why torture is universally wrong. Please.
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Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16

runec wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:
NO, I'm saying the only difference is that in one situation we are being lied to and in the other we are not. Otherwise, torture and how much we do it does not change.

No, I wasn't saying that there is no argument against torture other than religious reasons. Since we don't make policy on religion, we can't use this.
You have failed to present an argument to show why it is wrong.


You sincerely need me to tell you why torture is wrong?

Do you also need a primer on why drowning puppies is frowned upon?

This is not an argument against torture, this is simply ad hominen. Of course I don't think drowning puppies is okay. If it could save even one innocent human? Drown the fuck out of that little fir-ball.



HolyDrumstick wrote:
That's right, people with no intel, not innocent people. While innocent people do get tortured, so also do they get imprisoned, killed, etc. Those are equally wrong. The problem here is not a torture issue, when innocents are tortured, but rather an issue with being unable to determine who the enemy is.

And who's fault is that? Those who use insurgency rather than conventional warfare. How easy it would be if everyone was wearing uniforms....


Torture is fine even though we can't tell who the right people to torture are and whether any of the intel we get from them is even valid as a result?

What is wrong with you? >.>

First, saying "you don't even know who to torture" is misleading. You don't scoop up a random person and torture for information. You get a verified enemy and torture them. They aren't innocent. And, it is false that you can't verify if information is false. If they give you a location, you have recon (Which a fucking drone can do these days), and you verify it. The misguidance that modern torture is as inaccurate as torture from earlier times is WRONG. The thought that torture in earlier times was ineffective in the first place is also WRONG.

If you torture 5 confirmed enemies, only one knows, and you get a ton of verifiably false information and a handful of truths, then turn around and use that information to save 20 innocent lives.... By any nonreligious argument, that torture was less evil than inaction. Point blank.



I mean you actually have me and RaisedInACult on the same side of an argument. That's how bad this is.


This, again, is not an argument. This is ad hominen coupled with another statement that torture is wrong. Then you tack on a bit about agreeing with someone to support your point.

In short, it isn't reasoning at all.

You are also welcome to try again. Use logic to illustrate how torture is wrong, outside of religious arguments. Please.

No seriously, please give it a try.
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Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16
I would also like to state, for the record, that torturing for confession IS wrong. And, that's actually where the entire notion of torturing being wrong began. It just got twisted by idiots over the years.

If you torture for a confession, you will almost always get a confession, regardless of actual guilt. Therefore it is pointless and wrong. It accomplishes nothing of value.

Torturing for information is an entirely different matter.
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