First  Prev  1  2  3  Next  Last
Post Reply Users older than me
27257 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / Inside your compu...
Offline
Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16

HolyDrumstick wrote:




I think aggressiveness (or even cockiness, though me-no-likey) in conflict is okay as long as people are still sticking to rules of engagement. A lot of times people just hit me with this almost sadly universal street-fighting debate combination of ad hominem plus argumentum ad lapidem / association fallacies that I just think "do they know they're not supposed to do these things?" But I will admit that a long time ago I didn't know better either. I know better now, and I really hope others would too.
10263 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 10/25/16 , edited 10/25/16

nanikore2 wrote:


I think aggressiveness (or even cockiness, though me-no-likey) in conflict is okay as long as people are still sticking to rules of engagement. A lot of times people just hit me with this almost sadly universal street-fighting debate combination of ad hominem plus argumentum ad lapidem / association fallacies that I just think "do they know they're not supposed to do these things?" But I will admit that a long time ago I didn't know better either. I know better now, and I really hope others would too.


Yeah, I've noticed that a lot, two. Just recently having an argument and literally 4 posts in a row aren't even a debate, but rather this formula:


Insult me and my opinion.
Insert their opinion as a statement without any real argument.
Insult once again for good measure.


Then I keep pointing this out to them, asking them to explain it with logic rather than making statements and insulting me. But, they kept doing it.

Honestly, I don't care if you think my opinion is terrible. I don't care if we disagree. But, if you're going to tell me I am wrong or (insert insult here), at least explain your reasoning.
5122 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
15 / M / California
Online
Posted 10/25/16
Hmm, well I'm 15. I definitely don't think I know more than anyone older than me on this site. Oftentimes, I am worried that you people think less of me or whatever because of my young age. So, yeah, not all young people are cocky assholes and such.

I don't really get what you're talking about with the whole job thing though. I don't see anything wrong with asking somebody that, it is just small talk, or a way to break the ice or whatever.
27257 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / Inside your compu...
Offline
Posted 10/25/16

HolyDrumstick wrote:


Insult me and my opinion.
Insert their opinion as a statement without any real argument.
Insult once again for good measure.


Then I keep pointing this out to them, asking them to explain it with logic rather than making statements and insulting me. But, they kept doing it.

Honestly, I don't care if you think my opinion is terrible. I don't care if we disagree. But, if you're going to tell me I am wrong or (insert insult here), at least explain your reasoning.


Yep

*pours you a virtual drink*

*pours myself a virtual drink*

Not much could be done until the kicking stops
lawdog 
40433 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M
Offline
Posted 10/25/16

gornotck wrote:

I remember it being cheaper before, too. Now look at the prices, and it's terrible.


If you're talking about things in general, I can understand. If you're talking about anime for sale, then my reaction is: You're kidding, right?

Anime's never been cheaper...Aniplex titles excluded.
27257 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / Inside your compu...
Offline
Posted 10/25/16

SirBacon12 wrote:

Hmm, well I'm 15. I definitely don't think I know more than anyone older than me on this site. Oftentimes, I am worried that you people think less of me or whatever because of my young age. So, yeah, not all young people are cocky assholes and such.

I don't really get what you're talking about with the whole job thing though. I don't see anything wrong with asking somebody that, it is just small talk, or a way to break the ice or whatever.


What I meant by the job thing is that sometimes people ask me during a debate something like "so what makes YOU an expert on this subject" or " what do you do, anyways?" when what I do has nothing to do with the discussion. Some people go even further and keep telling me _their_ credentials and accomplishments, which is just complete silliness because it's the same thing.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority
5122 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
15 / M / California
Online
Posted 10/25/16

nanikore2 wrote:


SirBacon12 wrote:

Hmm, well I'm 15. I definitely don't think I know more than anyone older than me on this site. Oftentimes, I am worried that you people think less of me or whatever because of my young age. So, yeah, not all young people are cocky assholes and such.

I don't really get what you're talking about with the whole job thing though. I don't see anything wrong with asking somebody that, it is just small talk, or a way to break the ice or whatever.


What I meant by the job thing is that sometimes people ask me during a debate something like "so what makes YOU an expert on this subject" or " what do you do, anyways?" when what I do has nothing to do with the discussion. Some people go even further and keep telling me _their_ credentials and accomplishments, which is just complete silliness because it's the same thing.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority


Oh, I see. Yeah, that's pretty dumb.
555 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / M / New York
Offline
Posted 10/26/16 , edited 10/26/16
Do you genuinely care what people think of you, personally, in these forums? The only time I'd actually mention something about myself that's relevant to the topic if it's something that can be used to make a point. Recently, there was one user who seemed a bit too obsessed with me that he'd go search through my post history in an attempt to discredit whatever positive thing I say based on one issue I've discussed a few days prior. This user is the kind of pathetic fucking life-guru wannabe who yaps all day but never actually contributed to society in any way. Reflecting back on it now, I probably should've just ignored him since worthless people have worthless opinions anyway.
11700 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M
Online
Posted 10/26/16 , edited 10/26/16
Some people actually go out of their way to study ways to win arguments by not using logic but by instead undermining their opponents' reasoning.

For example, since there are often facts and studies for both sides of an argument, they pick the one opposing the opponent's position on purpose. When the opponent brings up studies/statistics, these people will either
1. Say "you made it up"
2.Say "you misread it"
3.Quote Mark Twain: "There are lies, damnable lies, and statistics" as a last ditch effort - Lying with Statistics

and if you start off somewhere by complementing your opponent, they often become less inclined to take the offensive during an argument, making them easier to deal with
etcetc

I think these types are the worst
5447 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
54 / M / Tacoma, WA. wind...
Offline
Posted 10/26/16
THis is a pretty interesting thread . . . .
I can do little but echo some of the things that have been said.

The only thing I could add, in my experience, people seem to be more interested in winning an argument rather than having a debate. Rhetoric that serves one purpose, getting the other person to just give up, like that is actually winning . . . anything. It's like a lot of people are letting their narcissism show more often now days. Alpha-male/female; wolf-pack/tribal mentality . . . Like the de-evolution that DEVO was singing about back in the '70's and '80's.... Kind of a sad thing if it turned out to be prophetic, like some of the stuff that Jello Biafra was singing back then too.... (I am using the word prophetic as a loose joke.)

I might be missing the point, I did not think the opening post was much of a "rant" but more of just a statement that I kind of agree with . . . here and there...

It almost bed-time for me so I might not be making much sense.
.
4264 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
15 / M / The Shire, England
Offline
Posted 10/26/16
2271 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
42 / M
Offline
Posted 10/26/16
To the OP I only have one thing I disagree with you about and it's this:


When I was just getting started out of college, I admit I had a really, big, head. Oh, I've "accomplished" so much. Oh, I've "come to town". LOL so what?! I am oh-so-knowledgeable. NOT. For every person I run into anywhere on the street there's at least 10 others 10 times smarter than me somewhere, many probably in plain sight but they never advertise themselves. I've come to "know my place", which is a very ordinary one.


Actually there are two things that I would like to tell you and they are:

1. Never belittle your own experiences. You should be proud of your accomplishments. It doesn't matter if there are a million people out there who are smarter than you and have done more than you because they are NOT you. You should take pride in your education and your accomplishments.

and

2. When you say: "I've come to "know my place", which is a very ordinary one." I strongly disagree. There is nothing ordinary about you or anyone else. You are extraordinarily unique. We all are in our own ways. We are all ordinary and none of us are special for any of the materialistic reasons that we believe we are special but we are all special because we are who we are.

I just think maybe you're selling yourself a bit too short. That's not to say you should be out there screaming look at me or I'm special and I completely get and even mostly agree with what you're saying.......but you are not ordinary. I'm sure when you were born you became the brightest miracle in this universe to your parents eyes (if not then you should have been). To someone, somewhere you are probably the bright light at the end of the tunnel. It's amazing how something so ordinary can become so spectacular when viewed through the right pair of eyes or through the right heart. If you're not married or are still single then I'm sure some day someone will meet you and think that you are the brightest star in the sky and if you are married or dating then they probably already think that. It's not up to us to say we're ordinary or special....that one is up to those around us who care about us the most. To me, I'm nothing. To my cats I am everything. Funny how they can see what I so easily overlook.
Posted 10/26/16

RedExodus wrote:

Some people actually go out of their way to study ways to win arguments by not using logic but by instead undermining their opponents' reasoning.

For example, since there are often facts and studies for both sides of an argument, they pick the one opposing the opponent's position on purpose. When the opponent brings up studies/statistics, these people will either
1. Say "you made it up"
2.Say "you misread it"
3.Quote Mark Twain: "There are lies, damnable lies, and statistics" as a last ditch effort - Lying with Statistics

and if you start off somewhere by complementing your opponent, they often become less inclined to take the offensive during an argument, making them easier to deal with
etcetc

I think these types are the worst


I dont see why its offensive to point out unsound reasoning. If fact it can be compassionate if viewed from a different angle. e.g. when one sees people mimic all the thoughts and ideas that the media puts forth on tv and fully subscribe to them, is it offensive to point out things like the cia's operation mockingbird?

Its not unreasonable to expect a sound argument from a debating opponent, because if there's little depth behind the reasoning and the logic eventually fails or is shown to be otherwise compromised - that necessarily affects the veracity of the debate point.

Now, there's a nice way, a blunt way, and a not so nice way to point out said things...



And yes, one should not discount his own experiences. Its in the learning, that's why figuring things out by oneself with a logical process is the best way to understand the fundamentals and inner workings of the process. (Sometimes the user manual is needed, of course...and if one does not exist, then one ostensibly builds one in his head. This is why the second time I do something, I can usually do it in 50-60% of the time it took me to do the first.)
11700 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M
Online
Posted 10/26/16 , edited 10/26/16

RaisedInACult wrote:


RedExodus wrote:

Some people actually go out of their way to study ways to win arguments by not using logic but by instead undermining their opponents' reasoning.

For example, since there are often facts and studies for both sides of an argument, they pick the one opposing the opponent's position on purpose. When the opponent brings up studies/statistics, these people will either
1. Say "you made it up"
2.Say "you misread it"
3.Quote Mark Twain: "There are lies, damnable lies, and statistics" as a last ditch effort - Lying with Statistics

and if you start off somewhere by complementing your opponent, they often become less inclined to take the offensive during an argument, making them easier to deal with
etcetc

I think these types are the worst


I dont see why its offensive to point out unsound reasoning. If fact it can be compassionate if viewed from a different angle. e.g. when one sees people mimic all the thoughts and ideas that the media puts forth on tv and fully subscribe to them, is it offensive to point out things like the cia's operation mockingbird?

Its not unreasonable to expect a sound argument from a debating opponent, because if there's little depth behind the reasoning and the logic eventually fails or is shown to be otherwise compromised - that necessarily affects the veracity of the debate point.

Now, there's a nice way, a blunt way, and a not so nice way to point out said things...



And yes, one should not discount his own experiences. Its in the learning, that's why figuring things out by oneself with a logical process is the best way to understand the fundamentals and inner workings of the process. (Sometimes the user manual is needed, of course...and if one does not exist, then one ostensibly builds one in his head. This is why the second time I do something, I can usually do it in 50-60% of the time it took me to do the first.)


I do not see what you mean by pointing out unsound reasoning. The people in these examples are staying away from logical forms in arguments on purpose and they know it.

In the above example, the user is intellectually dishonest about how he searched and presented his data and he KNOWS studies and statistics are not bs but he will say they are if he is in a pinch and the opponent knows a study that can beat him. This is a last ditch effort since then, he cannot use studies of his own.

You'll find them doing things like overusing jargon so that their opponent will not understand and therefore cannot respond lest they point out they don't understand and risk looking stupid as a result. There are also cases called "stream of consciousness" where they keep talking to snow job their opponents and not allow them to talk. If the opponent tries to talk back, they either raise their voice or say "you're rude for interrupting!" which is ironic.

You can see that these are used in arguments where both sides are not interested in what the other has to say. In debates, the purpose is to find the truth and learn. When you face these guys however, they will use a set formula for anything you say without needing to draw out what they know about the subject.
Posted 10/26/16
hehe, irony, you're pointing out the unsound reasoning but I get what you're saying
First  Prev  1  2  3  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.