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All Inclusive semi-meta discussion thread in an attempt to have safer discussion of Nerdom
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Posted 22 days ago

octorockandroll wrote:

I think I should just get it out of the way right now that a "safe space" (when correctly implemented) is a private area where basic manners are enforced as rules and people who may feel like others consistently act hostile towards them can go to just chill out, usually found on campuses of American colleges. They are not a huge location in which disagreement is banned and those who do not fit into a given mold are ostracized, like many here seem to think they are.
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Posted 22 days ago

octorockandroll wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I think I should just get it out of the way right now that a "safe space" (when correctly implemented) is a private area where basic manners are enforced as rules and people who may feel like others consistently act hostile towards them can go to just chill out, usually found on campuses of American colleges. They are not a huge location in which disagreement is banned and those who do not fit into a given mold are ostracized, like many here seem to think they are.


Oh yes, move the goalposts farther away please.
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Posted 22 days ago

Radraymond01 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I think I should just get it out of the way right now that a "safe space" (when correctly implemented) is a private area where basic manners are enforced as rules and people who may feel like others consistently act hostile towards them can go to just chill out, usually found on campuses of American colleges. They are not a huge location in which disagreement is banned and those who do not fit into a given mold are ostracized, like many here seem to think they are.


Oh yes, move the goalposts farther away please.


How am I moving any goalposts?
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Posted 22 days ago , edited 22 days ago

octorockandroll wrote:


Radraymond01 wrote:

Oh yes, move the goalposts farther away please.


How am I moving any goalposts?

You redefine safe space to make it sound nice.
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Posted 22 days ago , edited 22 days ago

Radraymond01 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


Radraymond01 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I think I should just get it out of the way right now that a "safe space" (when correctly implemented) is a private area where basic manners are enforced as rules and people who may feel like others consistently act hostile towards them can go to just chill out, usually found on campuses of American colleges. They are not a huge location in which disagreement is banned and those who do not fit into a given mold are ostracized, like many here seem to think they are.


Oh yes, move the goalposts farther away please.


How am I moving any goalposts?

You redefine safe space to make it sound nice.


I am not redefining anything. That is perfectly in line with the definition of a safe space and aside from a few examples of misuse by idiots it is the M.O. behind just about all safe spaces on college campuses where it is present.


The term safe space has been extended to refer to a space for individuals who feel marginalized to come together to communicate regarding their experiences with their perceived marginalization, typically on a university campus. -Wikipedia
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Posted 22 days ago , edited 22 days ago

octorockandroll wrote:

I am not redefining anything. That is perfectly in line with the definition of a safe space and aside from a few examples of misuse by idiots it is the M.O. behind just about all safe spaces on college campuses where it is present.

To implement this still requires Orwellian thought control.


"A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or challenged on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect, dignity and feelings and strongly encourage everyone to respect others."

"safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students.[2] The term safe space has been extended to refer to a space for individuals who feel marginalized to come together to communicate regarding their experiences with their perceived marginalization, typically on a university campus."

It's like walking on a mine-field. Arbitrarily letting someone define what "hate speech" is never works and always leads to spurious accusations and innocents being identified as "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR", because pointing out something obvious is "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR". Also "marginalizing" has become a non-sense buzzword for "I don't like it.".
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Posted 22 days ago

Radraymond01 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I am not redefining anything. That is perfectly in line with the definition of a safe space and aside from a few examples of misuse by idiots it is the M.O. behind just about all safe spaces on college campuses where it is present.

To implement this still requires Orwellian thought control.


"A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or challenged on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect, dignity and feelings and strongly encourage everyone to respect others."

"safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students.[2] The term safe space has been extended to refer to a space for individuals who feel marginalized to come together to communicate regarding their experiences with their perceived marginalization, typically on a university campus."

It's like walking on a mine-field. Arbitrarily letting someone define what "hate speech" is never works and always leads to spurious accusations and innocents being identified as "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR", because pointing out something obvious is "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR". Also "marginalizing" has become a non-sense buzzword for "I don't like it.".


No. it is not Orwellian thought to implement rules in a private area. If you hat the word "marginalizing" so much then just go with the definition I gave.
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Posted 22 days ago

octorockandroll wrote:


Radraymond01 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I am not redefining anything. That is perfectly in line with the definition of a safe space and aside from a few examples of misuse by idiots it is the M.O. behind just about all safe spaces on college campuses where it is present.

To implement this still requires Orwellian thought control.


"A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or challenged on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect, dignity and feelings and strongly encourage everyone to respect others."

"safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students.[2] The term safe space has been extended to refer to a space for individuals who feel marginalized to come together to communicate regarding their experiences with their perceived marginalization, typically on a university campus."

It's like walking on a mine-field. Arbitrarily letting someone define what "hate speech" is never works and always leads to spurious accusations and innocents being identified as "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR", because pointing out something obvious is "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR". Also "marginalizing" has become a non-sense buzzword for "I don't like it.".


No. it is not Orwellian thought to implement rules in a private area. If you hat the word "marginalizing" so much then just go with the definition I gave.

Private businesses/individuals/* may have the right to implement "rules"(you put it awfully nicely), but it is in awfully bad taste to not protect the freedoms of the people involved with your * and making an institution specifically for circumventing those rights when you feel bad is incredibly well, fucking retarded.
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Posted 22 days ago

AirAKose wrote:
Nah, I'm pretty calm. Sorry if my tone comes across as aggressive. I'm also programming at the same time, so I'm not entirely in a conversationalist state at the moment. Mental gears and such.
Majority: having superior numbers in comparison to other parts of the whole.
I'm not sure what that challenge to definition was about? But ok. I'm the only one discussing from this viewpoint.
But yeah! See, now you're getting it. The other one was definitely a closed conversation. So why post there to begin with? Imo starting this topic from the start would have been better.


This is quite possibly the silliest idea or justification for safe spaces I've ever heard.

We aren't talking about being bigots, we're talking about ideas and beliefs being challenged. Ideas and beliefs should ALWAYS be challenged. I'm a Christian, and I believe that Christianity should be challenged. If it isn't challenged, what value has my faith or belief in it?

Now, that's a religion, but this applies to everything. If you're in a minority position on a subject, the very last thing you should do is run away from challenging debate. And, if you do, the only reasoning you can present as to why you believe the way you believe is because you don't hear the counter-arguments -- you refuse to.

Now, if someone says I'm a bigot because I am a Christian, it'll probably piss me off. That's just an insulting judgment based on stereotyping. And, that's okay that bugs someone. It should.

On the other hand, if someone wants to point all the scientific data that illustrates flaws in the Bible, and a lack of evidence of God... I'll listen and gladly present my perspective.

Safe spaces are not "discrimination free" zones. No, because that's pretty much how we expect society to behave in the first place. I mean, yes there are bigots and these things happen, but generally, people are expected to not be bigots. It is unacceptable.

Therefore, safe spaces exist not to allow people to escape discrimination, but to escape challenging concepts. I'd challenge anyone to find evidence that this is psychologically healthy.

And, it is not for ANY minority belief. If flat Earth supporters wanted safe spaces on college campuses, they'd be laughed at. If white supremacists wanted safe spaces they'd be told to get bent. And they SHOULD be. Just like a modern feminist should be laughed at when she asks for a safe space for people who actually believe half of the propaganda modern feminism puts out these days. Not because they are women. Not because they are feminists and have those ideas. No, they should be laughed at because they want everyone to believe their bullshit, and when most people don't buy into it, when they face challenging ideas, they ask for a place to run and hide and reinforce their flawed concepts in an echo chamber, rather than with good argument.

Additionally, the obvious collective bias of the moderators is becoming worrisome. I'll leave it at that, for now. I'm already putting multiple things into motion to deal with this issue.
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Posted 22 days ago

Radraymond01 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


Radraymond01 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I am not redefining anything. That is perfectly in line with the definition of a safe space and aside from a few examples of misuse by idiots it is the M.O. behind just about all safe spaces on college campuses where it is present.

To implement this still requires Orwellian thought control.


"A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or challenged on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect, dignity and feelings and strongly encourage everyone to respect others."

"safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students.[2] The term safe space has been extended to refer to a space for individuals who feel marginalized to come together to communicate regarding their experiences with their perceived marginalization, typically on a university campus."

It's like walking on a mine-field. Arbitrarily letting someone define what "hate speech" is never works and always leads to spurious accusations and innocents being identified as "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR", because pointing out something obvious is "NEW PROGRESSIVE SLUR". Also "marginalizing" has become a non-sense buzzword for "I don't like it.".


No. it is not Orwellian thought to implement rules in a private area. If you hat the word "marginalizing" so much then just go with the definition I gave.

Private businesses/individuals/* may have the right to implement "rules"(you put it awfully nicely), but it is in awfully bad taste to not protect the freedoms of the people involved with your * and making an institution specifically for circumventing those rights when you feel bad is incredibly well, fucking retarded.


"Not protecting the freedoms of the people involved [in an institution]" What rights are being violated? If you're starting shit in my home or in my workplace I have every right to kick your ass out. There are no freedoms of any kind being violated by safe spaces.
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Posted 22 days ago , edited 22 days ago

HolyDrumstick wrote:
And, it is not for ANY minority belief. If flat Earth supporters wanted safe spaces on college campuses, they'd be laughed at. If white supremacists wanted safe spaces they'd be told to get bent. And they SHOULD be. Just like a modern feminist should be laughed at when she asks for a safe space for people who actually believe half of the propaganda modern feminism puts out these days. Not because they are women. Not because they are feminists and have those ideas. No, they should be laughed at because they want everyone to believe their bullshit, and when most people don't buy into it, when they face challenging ideas, they ask for a place to run and hide and reinforce their flawed concepts in an echo chamber, rather than with good argument.


Ugh. You are rather clueless about the topic honestly. You are presenting the exact reason why safe spaces are a thing. Because instead of these different movements being taken seriously at all, they are laughed at. It's one thing to challenge ideas, but that's the issue is that a lot of not challenging happens at first. It is literally laughter and then immediate opposition and searching for any one reason to discredit something as a whole rather than acknowledging anything about the issues presented.

And, the thing is, being on the side discrediting a new idea makes you a maintainer of the status quo.

Also


Safe spaces are not "discrimination free" zones. No, because that's pretty much how we expect society to behave in the first place. I mean, yes there are bigots and these things happen, but generally, people are expected to not be bigots. It is unacceptable.


You are not as woke as you think.
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Posted 22 days ago

octorockandroll wrote:
"Not protecting the freedoms of the people involved [in an institution]" What rights are being violated? If you're starting shit in my home or in my workplace I have every right to kick your ass out. There are no freedoms of any kind being violated by safe spaces.


Considering that in most situations, these safe spaces are meant to harbor believers of flawed notions which are usually discriminatory in nature, such as for females who believe that all men are pigs, the patriarchy is keeping them down, we perpetuate rape culture and all that nonsense. Yeah, yeah, there are some freedoms being trampled on. BUT, it's generally considered acceptable, simply because it's targeted at those in the majority.

And, you've just got to look at how silly this entire notion is in the first place: If you're in the majority, people need to be protected from you and your ideas?

Really? It couldn't be that MOST people see this propaganda for the stupidity it is? It couldn't be that your particular minority beliefs are a minority because they're fucking stupid and radical? It couldn't be that maybe you were told you were special a few too many times as a child? No?
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Posted 22 days ago , edited 22 days ago

octorockandroll wrote:


"Not protecting the freedoms of the people involved [in an institution]" What rights are being violated? If you're starting shit in my home or in my workplace I have every right to kick your ass out. There are no freedoms of any kind being violated by safe spaces.


I'm trying to say that they should try to protect the same rights that the government protects, even if it's a private institution. Though this will never happen, since it hurts them in the pocket.
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Posted 22 days ago

HolyDrumstick wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:
"Not protecting the freedoms of the people involved [in an institution]" What rights are being violated? If you're starting shit in my home or in my workplace I have every right to kick your ass out. There are no freedoms of any kind being violated by safe spaces.


Considering that in most situations, these safe spaces are meant to harbor believers of flawed notions which are usually discriminatory in nature, such as for females who believe that all men are pigs, the patriarchy is keeping them down, we perpetuate rape culture and all that nonsense. Yeah, yeah, there are some freedoms being trampled on. BUT, it's generally considered acceptable, simply because it's targeted at those in the majority.

And, you've just got to look at how silly this entire notion is in the first place: If you're in the majority, people need to be protected from you and your ideas?

Really? It couldn't be that MOST people see this propaganda for the stupidity it is? It couldn't be that your particular minority beliefs are a minority because they're fucking stupid and radical? It couldn't be that maybe you were told you were special a few too many times as a child? No?


There is no rights issue happening here. All of you crying about "freedom of speech" are wrong, seeing as that freedom of speech means that the government cannot censor you speaking publicly. If you honestly believe that manners being enforced in a private setting are a violation of freedom of speech you need to go to a safe space yourself, seeing as they are found on university campuses I am sure they will be able to point you to one of the classes that will give you the information you apparently lack.
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Posted 22 days ago

Radraymond01 wrote:

I'm trying to say that they should try to protect the same rights that the government protects, even if it's a private institution. Though this will never happen, since it hurts them in the pocket.


No. In any formal setting, be it a school a workplace or anything similar, rules need to be there and rules related to conduct nee to be enforced. That's the way it has always been and the way it always will be. besides, they are protecting your rights to spread whatever vitriol you may want. The existence of these spaces implies that the behaviour they discourage is allowed everywhere except there. If you want to attack the kind of people who go to safe spaces, it's actually better for you that they exist seeing as if they didn't such actions would be banned campus-wide. So what the fuck is the problem here?
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