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Post Reply The madman did it! Carrier is keeping jobs in the USA!
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Posted 11/29/16 , edited 12/2/16

runec wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:
Don't worry. Give runec and company time to come up with some way to twist this into something negative. That's their shtick. You know?


No need to twist. Carrier was already retaining 400 jobs ( so its not clear if this new deal is actually only 600 more not 1000 ) and was phasing down the others over a 3 year period beginning next year while offering pretty good severance deals to its employees ( including 4 years free tuition for career retraining ). It was never the catastrophic BS story Trump made it out to be to begin with. Nor is Trump in any position to negotiate any sort of deal with Carrier. This would have been Pence's work as governor. Though no one knows any of the details as to what was offered. The union was not involved at any point in this agreement so the people whose actual jobs these are have no idea what is going on ( and aren't happy about it ).

Given that Carrier was moving operations due to supply line and manufacturing costs, not labour costs, the state would have had to offer some pretty nice tax breaks. Which would mean these retained jobs would in effect be subsidized by taxpayers. The jobs Carrier was retaining were likewise administrative and engineering, not manufacturing. So no, no manufacturing jobs were brought back and its unclear what sector of the company these jobs are either yet.

Basically, its a happy ending to a bullshit story Trump made up in the first place.

But hey, if you want to swallow it go ahead. -.-



*slow clap and awed head shake.* Damn, runec! Your twisting skills are off the charts!

The 400 executive, sales, marketing, design, and engineering white collar office positions, not counted as part of the 2000 jobs being off-shored - the blue-collar factory floor jobs.

2000 jobs paying between $15.00 - $25.00 dollars per hour (depending on years on the job), vs 2000 jobs paying $19.00 a day. Incidentally, labor costs are a part of manufacturing costs. In the U.S., materials are cheep, but labor is where the costs come from, not just hourly wages, but things such as workmen's comp insurance, medical insurance and retirement benefits. Those ALL figure into the cost of manufacturing. It was a very slick attempt on your part to separate it from the rest. I'll bet that in Mexico, not only will they get away with paying the workers $19.00 a day, but they wouldn't have to worry over workmen's comp insurance, nor retirement benefits, nor medical insurance benefits. Explain how that isn't a big motivating factor (under NAFTA) for a manufacturer to move from the U.S. to Mexico?

Wow! Carrier, itself, announced it was closing its doors in the U.S. (except for the executive, design, and engineering aspects of the business). 2015 saw them net almost 8 billion dollars in profits, but they still wanted to move to increase their profits even more.

Severance deals? They've been handed a some extra money to buy themselves some time, before the bottom falls out from under them. What happens to a $22.00 per hour worker when his severance package runs out, and all he/she has is a lousy minimum wage job at a gas station, or at McDonald's?

But your fact twisting skillz are not to be dismissed! You say Trump blew it out of proportion. It wasn't the execs gathering the factory workers and announcing to them of the planned shut down of ALL of the factory workers jobs that made the news.

Trump was smart and seized on it during his campaign. But to Hillary, it was no-never-mind. For her it was business as usual under NAFTA.


The state tried, but it wasn't enough for Carrier. 1) The jobs are not being brought back. The jobs are not being off-shored. 2) Previously, Carrier said, it was retaining it's executive, sales, marketing, design and engineering people. They said that up front. So, those are not jobs that are being "brought back." So, the answer is 1000 jobs are not going to leave Indiana.

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Posted 11/29/16 , edited 11/30/16
maybe deadlyoats is onto something here. who would have the patience to argue with someone who thinks "anti-trump" equals "ultra-left", can say something like "he just wants to make america great again" without a shred of irony or self-awareness, and can't grasp the concept of people from around the world debating politics on the internet like they literally always have without jumping to the conclusion that it's a conspiracy against them, unless they were being paid to do it? =o
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Posted 11/29/16 , edited 11/30/16

limeparadox wrote:

maybe deadlyoats is onto something here. who would have the patience to argue with someone who thinks "anti-trump" equals "ultra-left", can say something like "he just wants to make america great again" without a shred of irony or self-awareness, and can't grasp the concept of people from around the world debating politics on the internet like they literally always have without jumping to the conclusion that it's a conspiracy against them, unless they were being paid to do it? =o


Wat...? I don't know what your saying but we have the reddit top mods admitting to those nice CTR paychecks in a private chat.

runec 
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Posted 11/30/16 , edited 12/4/16

DeadlyOats wrote:
The 400 executive, sales, marketing, design, and engineering white collar office positions, not counted as part of the 2000 jobs being off-shored - the blue-collar factory floor jobs.


That's what I said. I said they were retaining 400 jobs which were *not* manufacturing and its unclear yet whether they are including that 400 in this new 1000 total or not. Because the workers themselves were not included in whatever deal was discussed and made, we don't know if that is the case or not yet.



DeadlyOats wrote:
In the U.S., materials are cheep, but labor is where the costs come from, not just hourly wages, but things such as workmen's comp insurance, medical insurance and retirement benefits. Those ALL figure into the cost of manufacturing. It was a very slick attempt on your part to separate it from the rest. I'll bet that in Mexico, not only will they get away with paying the workers $19.00 a day, but they wouldn't have to worry over workmen's comp insurance, nor retirement benefits, nor medical insurance benefits. Explain how that isn't a big motivating factor (under NAFTA) for a manufacturer to move from the U.S. to Mexico?


Numerous countries not under NAFTA have likewise moved HVAC manufacturing to Mexico. It's where the infrastructure and supply lines for this industries are now. Whether we like it or not. Labour factors in as well of course but if just you wanted a well spring of dirt cheap labour you would look to Asia.




DeadlyOats wrote:Wow! Carrier, itself, announced it was closing its doors in the U.S. (except for the executive, design, and engineering aspects of the business). 2015 saw them net almost 8 billion dollars in profits, but they still wanted to move to increase their profits even more.


The parent company is a huge multinational conglomerate. The likes of which is enabled by America's economic structure and of which Trump himself personally owns one of. This is the much revered free market at work. Trying to bank on the compassion of a major corporation over operating costs is a futile endeavour.

This is a hollow band-aid fix on a mortal wound that sets an awful precedent. Saving a few jobs at one company does nothing for the other 50 in the state doing the same thing. Convincing one company to stay through whatever incentives Pence offered will have every company threatening to move to Mexico to get on the gravy train.




DeadlyOats wrote:Severance deals? They've been handed a some extra money to buy themselves some time, before the bottom falls out from under them. What happens to a $22.00 per hour worker when his severance package runs out, and all he/she has is a lousy minimum wage job at a gas station, or at McDonald's?


Yes, they were given 3 years notice and 4 years of tuition towards a degree in any field they choose. Including academic fees and even the books. That is far far beyond what any of the rest of us could hope for when we get a pink slip.




DeadlyOats wrote:But your fact twisting skillz are not to be dismissed! You say Trump blew it out of proportion. It wasn't the execs gathering the factory workers and announcing to them of the planned shut down of ALL of the factory workers jobs that made the news.


Yes, he did. He turned them into a political prop and he is using them as a political prop again. Which is sort of ironic because the worker's union here actually endorsed Sanders. -.-





DeadlyOats wrote:You said in a previous post that you are not American, and that your vote does not count. Yet, here you are working so hard to hate on Trump. I'm genuinely starting to wonder what could actually be your motivation. Trump isn't out to ruin the world. He just wants to make America great again. What's your angle? Are you a paid leftist propagandist?


Anything that happens in America has huge ramifications across the rest of the world. You can't dick around with a country of your size and economy power and not have it send shockwaves throughout the rest of us. Or have you forgotten your last financial crisis? And I don't need to "hate on" Trump. He's making no effort to hide the shit he's up too.

I mean Christ he just appointed a Goldman Sach's executive and hedge fund manager to the position of Treasury. He's appointing the very people responsible for the economic collapse that hurt middle class Americans in the first place to hold onto the country's piggy bank.

No one needs to farking sabotage his presidency. He's doing it himself. As for keeping Americans divided, that was his entire farking campaign strategy. So don't give me that bullshit either.



DeadlyOats wrote:You are the one with the twist the facts skillz who will find a way to twist the story. It's what you're paid for. Right?


Fuck I wish. If I could draw a paycheque for putting up with the bullshit on this forum? Man. =p




DeadlyOats wrote:why should I not think that there are forums all across the Internet, with paid runecs, trying to poison the minds of Americans?


Right. Know which side *actually* had confirmed, paid operatives all across the Internet? -.-




DeadlyOats wrote:Why should I not think there are paid runecs attempting to sow hatred and plant the seeds of sectarian violence and civil war? Not just runecs on the Internet, but runecs faking hate crimes perpetrated by Trump supporters. runecs paying other runecs to show up at organized "spontaneous" riots and protests in major cities across the country.


Oh fuck off. Trying to inject reason and pointing out the facts of what Trump is saying and doing is not sowing hatred and inciting civil war. Not unless your entire country is composed of incredibly gullible, violent 4 year olds.



DeadlyOats wrote:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, runec. I'm going to assume that the reason you are weighing-in with your ultra left anti-Trump views is, because CR has only one English language forums server for the whole planet, and you are probably still bitter that Great Britain voted to BREXIT. You can't help but weigh in, CR's only English language server compels you.


Politically opposing Trump is not "ultra left". I mean fuck, given Trump's ever shifting positions and vague ideology opposing him is neither left nor right politically speaking. He may be the GOP standard bearer but he's not on their team either. Trump is on team Trump and the sooner you guys realize it ( and many of you already are judging from the way some of the winds are changing ) the better.



runec 
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Posted 11/30/16 , edited 12/4/16

kevz_210 wrote:
Pretty good severance package? Great, job training for jobs that don't exist or pay far less.
You're over 50, you get laid off you are lucky to become a greeter at Walmart in today's economy, hardly seems like a decent tradeoff.
I've worked with plenty of people who fall into this category, many had advanced degrees, some even have published books and still couldn't find anything that paid over $15/hr. and that is if they are lucky.
Why can't we discuss the elephant in the room: non existent job growth for jobs that pay a living wage?


No one said it was a decent trade off. Just that its more than what most people get at this point.

As for jobs that pay a living wage, that is a massive concern, yes. One that is not assisted whatsoever by opposition to minimum wage laws, attacking social safety nets and continuing to cling to a failed system of health care. But clinging to a lost ideal of industries that have not existed in 20-30 years is not going to change things either.

For many of these industries its not a matter of jobs being "stolen" by other countries but the industries and jobs themselves just don't exist anymore. Or if they do its not in the same form as it was 20 or 30 years ago. Considerable manufacturing labour has been lost to straight up factory automation. Those jobs are never coming back. Pining for them is futile and if you believe anyone that says they're going to magically bring them back you're being conned.

But its easier to blame the outsider for "stealing" things from you than it is to address the problem itself or how long the problem has been ignored.




kevz_210 wrote:Worst thing is, I hear this type of rhetoric is coming out of mouths of the out-of-touch cosmopolitan latte/limousine liberal wing of the (former labor friendly) Democratic Party the most, which probably helped them lose the election. It would be one thing if this were a shared sacrifice, but it's not.


I would once again like to point out Trump just appointed a fucking Goldman Sach's executive to head the Treasury.




kevz_210 wrote:
I do find it strange that you believe these workers wouldn't be happy about it. Have you worked in the manufacturing sector? Some of them now get to keep their job and prevent foreclosing on their houses. I know if I were in their shoes I couldn't give two craps about the details, only that there would be a chance that I'd be able to continue to put food on the table.


I never said anyone was happy about it. Just that if a con artist shows up and promises you the moon you should think twice about it before you get bilked out of what little you have left.



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Posted 11/30/16 , edited 12/4/16
Good some are going to stay however it would be nice for those in other countries if their were production areas in other countries.

I know an icecream i love is made in America im waiting for them to start making it in my country so that import costs won't be a problem.

I feel its a balance that needs to be kept exporting jobs can be good for a company and the consumers but but for a country so it's a balancing act.
Posted 11/30/16 , edited 12/4/16

kevz_210 wrote:
Pretty good severance package? Great, job training for jobs that don't exist or pay far less.
You're over 50, you get laid off you are lucky to become a greeter at Walmart in today's economy, hardly seems like a decent tradeoff.
I've worked with plenty of people who fall into this category, many had advanced degrees, some even have published books and still couldn't find anything that paid over $15/hr. and that is if they are lucky.
Why can't we discuss the elephant in the room: non existent job growth for jobs that pay a living wage?


The REAL elephant in the room: The Federal Reserve's counterfeiting operation. The Central Banks of the world's counterfeiting operations.


Has it ever dawned on anyone that the entire reason we have all these economic problems is because our currency is being debased and is controlled by a private consortium of some of the wealthiest individuals on the planet?

And we wonder why the middle class is getting stomped out of existence?

The monetary fkery is the root of the jobs problem.
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Posted 11/30/16 , edited 11/30/16
True or not, the election of Trump in U.S. can seriously threaten the transnational corporate who depend on U.S. for their customers base and so can threaten their profit from international criminal activities. The 2016 U.S. election seem to have a similar effect as the Olympics in their influence of U.S. public image; Trump, with the image that he built up, can easily discourage immigrants and foreign investors simply by becoming the official president. If U.S. can no longer provide a strong customer base for profit from international crimes, then the transnational corporations may need to stop their exploitation in the third world; they may even need to built up the economy of a developing nation to gain a source of customers. The transnational corporate may end up establishing another nation as the top economic power for their customers but they would not gain that much profit as before since that other nation have less of a wasteful culture.
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Posted 11/30/16 , edited 12/4/16
I'm still waiting for him to fail when he illicitly decides to misuse his presidential salary on his businesses.
runec 
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Posted 12/1/16 , edited 12/4/16
Yep, they're getting $700,000 a year in State tax incentives to keep said jobs here. So these jobs are being effectively subsidized by taxpayers. So, hey, if you want to get cheap government subsidized labour just threaten to move jobs to Mexico. Nothing could possibly go wrong with shunting labour costs onto the taxpayers instead of the employers. Just ask McDonald's and Walmart. -.-

Oh, and the 1000 figure *does* include the 300 jobs they were already retaining anyway.
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Posted 12/2/16
Flashback: Obama Mocks Trump for Promising to Keep Carrier Plant in U.S.

https://news.grabien.com/story-flashback-obama-mocks-trump-promising-keep-carrier-plant-us


“Well, I’m going to negotiate a better deal.” Well, how — what — how exactly are you going to negotiate that? What magic wand do you have? And usually, the answer is he doesn’t have an answer.


I'll tell you what magic wand he has, its called meme magic and its something winners use not losers.
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Posted 12/2/16 , edited 12/4/16
Meme magic?

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Posted 12/2/16

qwueri wrote:

Meme magic?


Meme magic
Posted 12/2/16 , edited 12/2/16

animegirl2222 wrote:

I'm still waiting for him to fail when he illicitly decides to misuse his presidential salary on his businesses.


Wasn't he gonna take a dollar for his presidential salary ?
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Posted 12/2/16
At least someone is caring about the working class. where was Obama? (oh- playing golf)
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