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Post Reply The madman did it! Carrier is keeping jobs in the USA!
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Posted 12/4/16 , edited 12/4/16

Lance_Clemings wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:



Oh.... Like the ones in Fukushima. Sure. Why not?


Or like all the other ones we have providing power to us right now.



Omg, some of those states are so fucked, I can't even see what they are.


Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Michigan, Kentucky, New Jersey, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, New York, Connecticut, Vermont, Rhode Island, Delaware, D.C., Wisconsin, Tennessee and Missouri?

Oh, and Massachusetts
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Posted 12/4/16 , edited 12/4/16

Lance_Clemings wrote:

although not a win, it definitely is damage reduction. better that you only lose 1000 instead of double that.

And to anything who dare thinks that they just denied 1000 people in mexico a job, you got to remember. He is the president of the United States, not Mexico. He want his country to prosper, not one that he is not in charge of. It would be like giving my house people I don't even know, I'd be dammed if I ever do that. But if absolutely necessary, I can still keep half of my house while a parasite infests the other half. (not that I would like it)


^This, at least he is trying.

Sure beats the Dem and Republican establishment strategy of rolling over and playing dead while jobs continue to go down the drain.

Also, if a $20 an hour manufacturing job goes to Mexico to become a $3 an hour job, where does the $17 an hour go?
Considering shoes like Nike are basically produced by slave labor and still cost $100, its safe to say a majority of it goes into a corporation's bottom line. Rise and repeat for a majority of industries and it is easy to see where growing inequality in the US is coming from.
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Posted 12/4/16 , edited 12/4/16
Sure guys, it's totally great for government to take direct action that favors a specific firm, really inspires confidence in the notion that we're the 'greatest country in the world' when we give tax incentives and BONUSES to a company in order to keep business here when Trump previously promised... Punishments for companies who take their business elsewhere? Let alone setting the precedent that if a company makes a big enough stink about leaving that they can get favorable special treatment?

I swear I must be losing my mind. This is not a win. Does crony capitalism mean nothing to anyone anymore? Direct government action on behalf of a single company is a terrifying precedent to set. This is not action to protect an industry, the US economy, or anything of the sort.
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Posted 12/4/16

DeadlyOats wrote:
I'll bet that in Mexico, not only will they get away with paying the workers $19.00 a day, but they wouldn't have to worry over workmen's comp insurance, nor retirement benefits, nor medical insurance benefits. Explain how that isn't a big motivating factor (under NAFTA) for a manufacturer to move from the U.S. to Mexico?


A common Mexican manufacturing worker gets paid around $40 dollars($800 pesos) per week, and adding the additional benefits like social medical insurance and retirement benefits, it comes around $70 dollars per week

And trust me, this is a very stressful experience , i'm sure that you DON'T want those jobs back in your country

I worked in an electronic mfg company in Guadalajara for a year, and the day when i left was one of the happiest of my life.

Unfortunately, many people keeps working on those fabrics because they have low education degrees, so they don't have any other place to go

And some of my old mates were to China ... and told me that Mexico is Disneyland compared to China
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Posted 12/4/16
And the problem here is not Mexico, nor China, nor US

the problem is that big companies don't care if they have to exploit Chinese, Mexican or American people to get their hands full of money
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Posted 12/4/16
Well in some aspects fission is green and safe but the human stupidity behind the accidents of the past is 100% real. Both Fukushima and Chernobyl where caused by human stupidity. Different levels but the same nonetheless.
They only just sealed Chernobyl last week with the new covering system http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-new-safe-confinement-sarcophagus-covers-destroyed-4th-reactor-at-picture-id626493216?s=594x594 costing over $1billion..
So Japan will have to end up having to cover Fukushima with something costing the same or more. Most likely more as they have to cover 4 reactors vs 1. I dunno but I think that kind of money could be better spent elsewhere.
Originally a better defense system against tsunamis would have been how much cheaper? Even if it had to be replaced each time it got hit still would have been cheaper.

There is tech that could see nuclear fission done so much better. No risk of any meltdown and using the 85 to 90% of the power in the enriched uranium which currently isn't used (which is referred to as nuclear waste). So no more nuclear waste. Again where is the mass investment in that?

Excluding solar all nearly power comes from spinning a turbine. Some use coal/gas or nuclear fission to heat water to produce steam. There isn't some super fancy stuff behind that. There are constant currents in the ocean capable of spinning a turbine.

Once something exists should we go oh it's good enough and always good enough? Not possible to get bugs out of anything? Great thinking... Wind turbines can explode so they will always explode.
Toasters can catch fire but I bet you still have one of them in your house.

Technology will always get better but only if people invest in it. 1st generation's of anything will always suck more then later generation's of the same product.
Posted 12/4/16

DeadlyOats wrote:



Well, that's not very encouraging from a Libertarian perspective, but it's not really very different from what I expected from Trump -- it's partly what got him elected, after all. If it was just a promise of tax-breaks here and tariffs there, then it's pretty much just Trump carrying out his campaign promises -- promises I'd rather he not keep, but I gotta give him credit. It might be worrying as well if he threatened pulling the pentagon contracts. I want my tax-dollars being spent efficiently, and that means getting the lowest cost for the best product. However, it may in fact be the case that another company can provide something very similar to these guys, and it was a good tactic. I don't know, but I'm not encouraged.

As a side note, I'd say that $7 mil is a lot of money, just like I'd say 1,000 is a lot of jobs. But, if you're going to say that $7 mil is peanuts in the grand scheme of things, then I'd like to just point out that 1,000 jobs is peanuts as well. If this $7 mil is going to every business that might up and leave, tax-payers are going to have a hell of a time in this country. Particularly future tax-payers, the young people that will have to pay off this shit. But, maybe this $7 mil is just the cumulative gain on the tax breaks, and it's only a result of Trump's larger tax plan, rather than any sort of collusion. But, I don't like the smell of this.
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Posted 12/4/16
The part where he forgot about the promise he had made about the jobs was glorious, though.
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Posted 12/5/16

theYchromosome wrote:



Well, that's not very encouraging from a Libertarian perspective, but it's not really very different from what I expected from Trump -- it's partly what got him elected, after all. If it was just a promise of tax-breaks here and tariffs there, then it's pretty much just Trump carrying out his campaign promises -- promises I'd rather he not keep, but I gotta give him credit. It might be worrying as well if he threatened pulling the pentagon contracts. I want my tax-dollars being spent efficiently, and that means getting the lowest cost for the best product. However, it may in fact be the case that another company can provide something very similar to these guys, and it was a good tactic. I don't know, but I'm not encouraged.

As a side note, I'd say that $7 mil is a lot of money, just like I'd say 1,000 is a lot of jobs. But, if you're going to say that $7 mil is peanuts in the grand scheme of things, then I'd like to just point out that 1,000 jobs is peanuts as well. If this $7 mil is going to every business that might up and leave, tax-payers are going to have a hell of a time in this country. Particularly future tax-payers, the young people that will have to pay off this shit. But, maybe this $7 mil is just the cumulative gain on the tax breaks, and it's only a result of Trump's larger tax plan, rather than any sort of collusion. But, I don't like the smell of this.



Given that he's gone this far, I think he really is going to renegotiate or trash NAFTA. If he does, then the incentives for American jobs to leave the country will evaporate. Combine that with the promised 35% Tariff on goods shipped into the U.S. by former American factories, and add to that his promise to reduce certain regulations, and reduce the corporate taxes.... Those are a lot of incentives/threats. He won't need to individually give each business a separate deal. This combination of incentives/threats might even induce a some of those businesses to return the the U.S.

Here's something else to look for. Although we don't know the details of the deal, no one has mentioned this. About a 1000 jobs are still going to Mexico; the coil assembly part of that business is moving. If NAFTA goes away, normal taxation of goods shipped into the U.S. will apply again, but will Trump also add the 35% Tariff to those coils being shipped back from Mexico? It might be that Carrier already knows this, but is willing to eat the costs of the tax for just the coil, and pass it on to the consumer, meaning a slight increase in the price of their product. I can't see congress voting for a tariff that excludes just Carrier.

There's so much to look at. We can speculate and speculate and speculate until the end of time -- or until 20 January 2017 at least.
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Posted 12/5/16 , edited 12/5/16

penguincat wrote:

Well in some aspects fission is green and safe but the human stupidity behind the accidents of the past is 100% real. Both Fukushima and Chernobyl where caused by human stupidity. Different levels but the same nonetheless.
They only just sealed Chernobyl last week with the new covering system http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-new-safe-confinement-sarcophagus-covers-destroyed-4th-reactor-at-picture-id626493216?s=594x594 costing over $1billion..
So Japan will have to end up having to cover Fukushima with something costing the same or more. Most likely more as they have to cover 4 reactors vs 1. I dunno but I think that kind of money could be better spent elsewhere.
Originally a better defense system against tsunamis would have been how much cheaper? Even if it had to be replaced each time it got hit still would have been cheaper.

There is tech that could see nuclear fission done so much better. No risk of any meltdown and using the 85 to 90% of the power in the enriched uranium which currently isn't used (which is referred to as nuclear waste). So no more nuclear waste. Again where is the mass investment in that?

Excluding solar all nearly power comes from spinning a turbine. Some use coal/gas or nuclear fission to heat water to produce steam. There isn't some super fancy stuff behind that. There are constant currents in the ocean capable of spinning a turbine.

Once something exists should we go oh it's good enough and always good enough? Not possible to get bugs out of anything? Great thinking... Wind turbines can explode so they will always explode.
Toasters can catch fire but I bet you still have one of them in your house.

Technology will always get better but only if people invest in it. 1st generation's of anything will always suck more then later generation's of the same product.


Not only do they have to cover four reactors, but at least one of those reactors is in contact with ground water that is flowing into the Pacific Ocean. They have to cut off the flow of that water to the reactor, the molten glob of uranium, and other metals, that is slowly melting its way deeper and deeper into the earth, leaving a trail or radioacitve rock, clay, and water (which is flowing into the Pacific).

They tried to freeze the ground water flowing into the reactor facility, but have only achieved partial success, thus far. In other words, radioactive water is still flowing into the Pacific Ocean. Meanwhile, the people working there, are getting sick, and the robots they send down break down after only a few hours or days. That radiation is a beast. It even kills machines!

The Russians are lucky. They don't have to deal with ground water at Chernobyl...
runec 
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Posted 12/8/16
Okay so....now the plant workers criticized him for fudging the job numbers; So now he's attacking them blaming *them* for the loss of jobs to Mexico? >.>

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Posted 12/8/16

runec wrote:

Okay so....now the plant workers criticized him for fudging the job numbers; So now he's attacking them blaming *them* for the loss of jobs to Mexico? >.>



Yep, I'm so excited to have this toddler representing my country to the world for the next four years. Twitter beefs with anyone that mentions his name, even when they call him out on a blatant lie of his. I'd just keep my mouth shut.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-blasts-carrier-union-leader-1481169666

^^For those looking for context on rune's comment,
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Posted 12/8/16

Lance_Clemings wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:



Oh.... Like the ones in Fukushima. Sure. Why not?


Or like all the other ones we have providing power to us right now.



Omg, some of those states are so fucked, I can't even see what they are.


That literally says the explosion is based on Chernobyl but none of those reactors are of the Chernobyl design. I might as well say that firecracker can be as dangerous as TNT if I use the explosion radius of TNT. Our reactors are related to 3 mile island where everything went according to plan during an accident and nothing happened.
runec 
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Posted 12/9/16

The company's deal with President-elect Donald Trump to keep a furnace plant from moving to Mexico also calls for a $16 million investment in the facility.

Most of that money will be invested in automation said to Greg Hayes, CEO of United Technologies, Carrier's corporate parent. And that automation will replace some of the jobs that were just saved.

"We're going to...automate to drive the cost down so that we can continue to be competitive," he said on an interview on CNBC earlier this week. "Is it as cheap as moving to Mexico with lower cost labor? No. But we will make that plant competitive just because we'll make the capital investments there. But what that ultimately means is there will be fewer jobs."

The decision to keep Carrier's furnace manufacturing operations in the U.S. instead of moving them to Mexico will save about 800 jobs out of the 1,400 at the plant, at least in the near term. The company declined to say how many of the plants 800 remaining jobs could be lost to automation, or when.


So, quite literally, Trump just paid Carrier to help them replace the jobs he "saved".

Bravo.
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