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Post Reply Trump and Taiwanese President Talk
qwueri 
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Posted 12/5/16

Amyas_Leigh wrote:

You seem to know about this stuff more than I do. I thought rapists would dope up their victims with anything, including alcohol so they could rape them :sweatingbullets:


Ruffies are known as the date-rape drug for a reason. Alcohol isn't known for creating false memories either. The use of hallucinogens wouldn't certainly cast doubt on an accusation, though I doubt something that might cause the victim to thrash around work very well for an attacker.
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Posted 12/5/16

bensonc120 wrote:
Funny because you are the one missing the point completely. I'm going to take a guess that you have never lived in Taiwan or China and that your knowledge of the region comes from google and wikipedia.


The question you responded to was why was everyone afraid of pissing off Russia but totally okay with pissing off China. You responded by illustrating how China is a regional bully. I pointed out that Russia is the same and worse. That is the point you're missing. If it was not your intent to weigh both countries against each other than you probably shouldn't have responded to the question about weighing both countries against each other.

=p


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Posted 12/5/16

runec wrote:

The question you responded to was why was everyone afraid of pissing off Russia but totally okay with pissing off China. You responded by illustrating how China is a regional bully. I pointed out that Russia is the same and worse. That is the point you're missing. If it was not your intent to weigh both countries against each other than you probably shouldn't have responded to the question about weighing both countries against each other.

=p




My point which you continue to miss is that if you let China go unchecked, Taiwan will be the next Syria.
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Posted 12/5/16

bensonc120 wrote:
My point which you continue to miss is that if you let China go unchecked, Taiwan will be the next Syria.


Given the question you responded to that means you're disagreeing with yourself. If you are equating China and Taiwan with Russia and Syria then you should be arguing that Russia is the more pressing matter. But you discounted Russia to argue for why China needs to be dealt with.

So which is it?
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Posted 12/5/16 , edited 12/5/16

runec wrote:


Given the question you responded to that means you're disagreeing with yourself. If you are equating China and Taiwan with Russia and Syria then you should be arguing that Russia is the more pressing matter. But you discounted Russia to argue for why China needs to be dealt with.

So which is it?


I have not contradicted my stance and have never argued that Russia is less pressing than China. That is there for everyone to simply scroll up and read. I merely pointed out that Russia/Syria is a cautionary tale of what could happen if you let a regional bully go unchecked. We can't be so afraid of hurting China's feeling that we don't show support for our allies, especially Taiwan given its unique relationship and history with USA.

China's default mode is pissy and aggressive. This is something that if you knew anything about the region, I would not have to explain to you. If we allow China to conduct "military exercises" without consequences, we are sending them a message that they will go unchecked. The 1979 TRA is not what keeps China at bay, it is what gives them ammunition be aggressive. The only things stopping China are our weapons sales to Taiwan and our 7th fleet patrolling the South China Sea until we formally recognize Taiwan and openly engage in diplomacy with our ally. President Trump taking the call from President Tsai is the first step in the right direction toward stabilization of that region, which will only be fully accomplished with official recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty by USA and the rest of the world. To not do anything would be to destabilize the region.

I hope my point has been made clear. If you can't understand this I would recommend spending time living in that region and taking classes with Chinese and Taiwanese professors. Subtle factors such as China's propaganda toward its own citizens is a big part of what drives that aggression. The Chinese government point to the TRA of 1979 as an argument of why Taiwan must be controlled since China can show that even the USA and the rest of the world does not officially recognize Taiwan's sovereignty. Chinese citizens, cut off from real news, are brainwashed into thinking that Taiwanese people want to join China but are forced by other political agendas to keep Taiwan separate from China. There are many factors that affect this mercurial Taiwan-China relationship that most outsiders would be completely ignorant to.
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Posted 12/5/16
Hmm, if there is literally nothing going on: then Trump needs to learn that he can no longer act like a fool or he will face the consequences of any foolishness at his station.That said: the removal of the sanctions placed on Russia, a nation run by a man possibly suffering from an existential crisis about the USSR, sounds like a really bad move since we are literally causing a recession that could make it hard to muster the tools to fight back the longer it is kept in place if we decide to physically intervene. And, any possible war with China would most likely prevent any internal change and we will most likely be labeled as instigators and an entity that created a large threat to our allies in Asia as well as any future hopes of a free Hong Kong. Anyways, this is one of the many things that could hurt Trump and the Republican party for a long time, IMO. Not that he cares... I'm expecting a long train-wreck either way.
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Posted 12/5/16

MopZ wrote:
And, any possible war with China would most likely prevent any internal change and we will most likely be labeled as instigators and an entity that created a large threat to our allies in Asia


Doesn't seem like you're getting it. The threat to our allies in Asia is an unchecked China. The president of Taiwan wouldn't have called Trump if she wanted to avoid bad relations between China and USA. She's not going to turn around and label the USA as an instigator for stuff like accepting her phone call. It's a very strange assumption to make, isn't it?
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Posted 12/6/16 , edited 12/6/16

Kavalion wrote:


MopZ wrote:
And, any possible war with China would most likely prevent any internal change and we will most likely be labeled as instigators and an entity that created a large threat to our allies in Asia


Doesn't seem like you're getting it. The threat to our allies in Asia is an unchecked China. The president of Taiwan wouldn't have called Trump if she wanted to avoid bad relations between China and USA. She's not going to turn around and label the USA as an instigator for stuff like accepting her phone call. It's a very strange assumption to make, isn't it?


They are in check though. And the longer they are in check with the US and Taiwan: the more we win and Taiwan stays safe without bloodshed and China's own people will most likely end up not want anything to do with Taiwan. The best case scenario is that civil unrest unseats the communist party with a liberal democracy, or they back off wanting to avoid the negative press and public blow-back.

And, it's no Taiwan that will not throw that label, but people dissatisfied with what will be seen as a "second Vietnam" the world over. If Trump infuriates China into conflict: it's bad for us. But, if China moves first to take Taiwan: It's bad for them on both the world stage and a loss in battle will further humiliate them as a world power.

Also, Russia is making conquest through our allied nations, so the same should be said about them and Putin.

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Posted 12/6/16 , edited 12/6/16

bensonc120 wrote:
I have not contradicted my stance and have never argued that Russia is less pressing than China. That is there for everyone to simply scroll up and read. I merely pointed out that Russia/Syria is a cautionary tale of what could happen if you let a regional bully go unchecked. We can't be so afraid of hurting China's feeling that we don't show support for our allies, especially Taiwan given its unique relationship and history with USA.


You may want to scroll up and read what you responded to.

As for Russia/Syria, that is a very different situation from China and Taiwan. You could maybe argue that a Crimea like situation is possible but that would likely require someone to force China's hand. Taiwan's unique relationship and history with the US is 40 years of a policy of ambiguity to avoid forcing anyone to make a rash decision. Provoking China intentionally is not going to stabilize anything in the region and runs the risk of destabilizing the economy of all three countries.

Especially if that provocation is coming from Trump who has fed Americans a lot of bullshit about China over the course of his campaign. And whose primary interest in Taiwan is probably business related. Not the well being or independence of the Taiwanese people.





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Posted 12/6/16

MopZ wrote:
If Trump infuriates China into conflict: it's bad for us. But, if China moves first to take Taiwan: It's bad for them on both the world stage and a loss in battle will further humiliate them as a world power.


Well, Trump isn't infuriating China into conflict. He's pointing out how they're infuriating the world with illegal moves like laying claim to international waters and building a military presence there. No one's going to be on their side if they claim that Trump's tweets angered them and we all better watch what we say about their illegal moves. The tough talk is necessary. More than just talk might be necessary.

This pattern is just like World War II. Germany annexed its neighbors and Japan tried to fortify the Pacific. It turned into a huge mess because they weren't stopped early on. I think it's important to be very vocal and "infuriating" so that they understand they can't get away with moves like taking Taiwan, fortifying international waters, and triggering World War III.

Keep in mind, the only reason China is angered is because they want to be able to take Taiwan and call it an internal matter that we can't intercede in, because we never recognized Taiwan as an independent state. They haven't done it, yet, because the USA sells a lot of military equipment to Taiwan, and it's an island, so China will have difficulty projecting enough military power to quickly take it over and avoid any serious conflict. Strong staging areas for their navy in the South China Sea will help with that, of course, which is what they're working on that's angering the world so much.

And yes, there are similar issues with Russia.
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Posted 12/6/16

runec wrote:


You may want to scroll up and read what you responded to.

As for Russia/Syria, that is a very different situation from China and Taiwan. You could maybe argue that a Crimea like situation is possible but that would likely require someone to force China's hand.


Thank you for pointing out the obvious point that there are differences between the Rssia/Syria situation compared to China/Taiwan. Literally not one person has stated or implied that the situations are exactly the same.nor does this fact alter our ability to use what happened to Syria as a cautionary tale for Taiwan.


runec wrote:

Taiwan's unique relationship and history with the US is 40 years of a policy of ambiguity to avoid forcing anyone to make a rash decision. Provoking China intentionally is not going to stabilize anything in the region and runs the risk of destabilizing the economy of all three countries.



This is where your ignorance really shines. China's default position is provoked, aggressive, pissy. The TRA has never kept the peace. For it to keep the peace there has to be 3 willing participants, and China over the past 4 decades has shown themselves not to play by the rules. The central point to the TRA is that China and Taiwan must resolve their disputes peacefully and while Taiwan has upheld their end of the bargain, China has not. It took weapon sales to Taiwan and the 7th felt patrolling/reacting to Chinese aggression over the past 4 decades to maintain status quo. Your knowledge of the region really makes you unfit for form any type of opinion, unfortunately. I suggested you spend some time in Taiwan, China, HK and learn what wikipedia can't teach you. I maintain it is still a great advice for you.



runec wrote:
Especially if that provocation is coming from Trump who has fed Americans a lot of bullshit about China over the course of his campaign. And whose primary interest in Taiwan is probably business related. Not the well being or independence of the Taiwanese people.


So you have 2 valid points. Trump's interest in Taiwan may be 100% business related. We don't know his motivations yet. The second point you made about Trump not caring about Taiwan's independence may also be true. We don't know if Trump will leave Taiwan blindsided once China sweetens their stance, or if Trump just made a blunder and did not really think about or understand the implications of that phone call. To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he is being advised by people who understand this region and understand the true pathway to stability is to formally engage in diplomacy with our Taiwanese ally, something anyone with any common sense and knowledge of the region would support. We will have to wait and see. However, to call this a provocation is a joke when China regularly conducts military exercises and makes aggressive statements toward Taiwan. You must understand that China's default position is aggressive and provoked.





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Posted 12/6/16

bensonc120 wrote:
Thank you for pointing out the obvious point that there are differences between the Rssia/Syria situation compared to China/Taiwan. Literally not one person has stated or implied that the situations are exactly the same.nor does this fact alter our ability to use what happened to Syria as a cautionary tale for Taiwan.


Syria is obviously different but you can use it as a cautionary tale for Taiwan? How, exactly? What possible parallel can you draw between Taiwan and Syria? I even gave you a better example to go with with Crimea.



bensonc120 wrote:Your knowledge of the region really makes you unfit for form any type of opinion, unfortunately.


Might want to put the rock down. Glass houses and all.



bensonc120 wrote:
We don't know his motivations yet. The second point you made about Trump not caring about Taiwan's independence may also be true. We don't know if Trump will leave Taiwan blindsided once China sweetens their stance, or if Trump just made a blunder and did not really think about or understand the implications of that phone call.


He's been looking at business expansion into Taiwan for months and apparently planning this phone call for just as long. All of his diplomatic dealings so far have aligned with a business interest of himself or one of his children. Trump is, as always, in this entirely for Trump. He doesn't give a rat's ass about Taiwan itself. Though I can easily see him provoking China for the hell of it if they offend his delicate ego in some way.

In that sense Trump and China are rather alike.



bensonc120 wrote:To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he is being advised by people who understand this region and understand the true pathway to stability is to formally engage in diplomacy with our Taiwanese ally, something anyone with any common sense and knowledge of the region would support.


He's specifically been avoiding the very briefings that would advise him of such matters. As for stability, again, what stability will arise from disrupting relations and possibly provoking a conflict with your second and ninth largest trading partners?



bensonc120 wrote:
We will have to wait and see. However, to call this a provocation is a joke when China regularly conducts military exercises and makes aggressive statements toward Taiwan. You must understand that China's default position is aggressive and provoked.



Yes, it is, but by the same measure China is a country very concerned with appearances. It has an image to maintain to the world and to its own people. Its very sensitive to any slight, real or perceived in terms of diplomacy and politics. Formally recognizing Taiwan would be an act that requires an extremely deft hand in these matters.

Its not a situation you can just blunder into like a bull in a China ( har ) shop. And its certainly not one where a president elect should be directly provoking China by breaking 40 years of foreign policy against the advice of the state department and the entire diplomatic corps. All because he wants to build more things with his name on it.

This is the diplomatic equivalent of phoning up Israel to compliment it on all its fine new housing projects. Easily avoidable and probably on the first page of How To Be President For Dummies.













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Posted 12/6/16
.Maybe he just wants to grab her by the pussy?
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Posted 12/7/16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PnuXelvWA
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Posted 12/7/16
Taiwan seems like a cool country, is it a good holiday destination?
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