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feelings VS facts in debates, between democrats and reps
runec 
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Posted 12/8/16
The premise of this thread is legitimate, your conclusion however is painfully ironic given your track record with facts on the forum. -.-



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Posted 12/8/16
This is why I re-registered as independent after 2008. lol
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Posted 12/8/16

runec wrote:

The premise of this thread is legitimate, your conclusion however is painfully ironic given your track record with facts on the forum. -.-





which im trying to be better with
runec 
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Posted 12/8/16 , edited 12/8/16

redokami wrote:


runec wrote:

The premise of this thread is legitimate, your conclusion however is painfully ironic given your track record with facts on the forum. -.-





which im trying to be better with


Which is honestly commendable. But you did essentially start a thread by throwing rocks from a glass house.

One key mistake I see the American right repeatedly make about the left is assuming that "liberals" are as collectively unified as "conservatives". Which is simply not the case. The very nature of liberal or libertarian vs conservative or authoritarian means a broader spectrum of views and more internal disagreement. Its the one key advantage that Republicans have over Democrats come election time. Republicans can be unified around singular topics or beliefs and have a strong sense of "us vs them" and their "team".

Democrats tend to be a wider spectrum ranging from social democrats to the fringe "tumblr sjw" you guys like to rant about and trot out as an example as if its the norm. But because of that spectrum democrats have a harder time unifying behind a candidate if they disagree with that candidate on anything ( see the Sanders vs Clinton crap ). Due to the two party system and nature of the electoral college though the US system of government doesn't support that sort of dissent compared to say a parliamentary system. In order for one side or the other to succeed they need to unify entirely behind a candidate whether they like that candidate or not. Anything else and you are effectively throwing your vote away ( if your vote had any meaning to begin with. Which depending on your state it may not. )

So yeah, if someone tries to trot out "femnazi sjws" or some other bullshit its easy to dismiss. Just as a few years ago if someone trotted out Alex Jones as a common example of the right it could be easily dismissed. And that, therein, is the danger of this entire election cycle and why people are sounding alarms. Trump legitimized the fringe and normalized it as a part of political discourse while he himself is essentially immune to facts. He has no shame and often not even a clear point in lying his ass off so calling him out for being dishonest has little effect.

Now, if Hillary had gone around campaigning on stage with PETA and spent every night re-tweeting tumblr at 3am you might be able to make a case for both sides being equal in this regard. But she of course did not and the left by its natural doesn't have an equivalent of the alt-right to begin with.

And that brings us to our current mess. Trump is immune to facts and his behaviour and campaign has essentially vaccinated his most fervent supports against facts. An effect magnified by social media and the spread of fake news that allowed people to stay in alternative reality bubbles. This is exceedingly dangerous to national discourse as once one side of a debate swears off facts entirely there's no discussion you can have anymore.

Thats not to say there are no reasonable Republicans, there are. But its the nature of the beast that they stick with their team at least until they win the qualifiers. The parade of Republicans trying to twist themselves on TV to support Trump but not support him was painful to watch leading up the election. But now that they won the qualifier, things are going to get ugly within the party. The GOP isn't actually going to stand for any of Trump's more ludicrous proposals ( and indeed, Trump seems disinterested in everything he promised on the campaign trail anyway ). And they have a safety valve in Pence which they can and will pull if Trump is no longer useful as a populist figurehead or finally does something heinous enough to turn the last of his supporters against him.

The problem is Trump has already let this genie out of the bottle and it will undoubtedly get worse before it gets better.







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Posted 12/8/16
Liberals are still bitter that their savior, Hillary Clinton, isn't the president-elect. Of course, I'm generalizing when I say "liberals," but many do share that sentiment. Conservatives are essentially being persecuted by the left, and it's quite sad. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative but their behavior isn't justified. Donald Trump won using America's voting system to his advantage. The popular vote really means nothing, ultimately. Vainly "recounting" the votes won't do anything. Please, just accept reality people. Trump can't repeal the first amendment, and can't, legally, persecute the LGBT community. Trump isn't in possession of such authority. Hell, he's not even the official POTUS yet. I, like many people, do have my doubts about the legitimacy of the Trump administration; but, his term hasn't even began yet. In addition, people have always had doubts about our future president-elects. I mean, it's nothing new. I'd say give him a chance. Although I hope he doesn't get offended by a tweet and start World War III.
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Posted 12/8/16 , edited 12/8/16

Ununoctium wrote:

Liberals are still bitter that their savior, Hillary Clinton, isn't the president-elect. Of course, I'm generalizing when I say "liberals," but many do share that sentiment. Conservatives are essentially being persecuted by the left, and it's quite sad. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative but their behavior isn't justified. Donald Trump won using America's voting system to his advantage. The popular vote really means nothing, ultimately. Vainly "recounting" the votes won't do anything. Please, just accept reality people. Trump can't repeal the first amendment, and can't, legally, persecute the LGBT community. Trump isn't in possession of such authority. Hell, he's not even the official POTUS yet. I, like many people, do have my doubts about the legitimacy of the Trump administration; but, his term hasn't even began yet. In addition, people have always had doubts about our future president-elects. I mean, it's nothing new. I'd say give him a chance. Although I hope he doesn't get offended by a tweet and start World War III.


I am considered pretty liberal, and I think Hillary is disgusting. What is this about her being my savior?
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Posted 12/8/16

runec wrote:


redokami wrote:


runec wrote:

The premise of this thread is legitimate, your conclusion however is painfully ironic given your track record with facts on the forum. -.-





which im trying to be better with


Which is honestly commendable. But you did essentially start a thread by throwing rocks from a glass house.

One key mistake I see the American right repeatedly make about the left is assuming that "liberals" are as collectively unified as "conservatives". Which is simply not the case. The very nature of liberal or libertarian vs conservative or authoritarian means a broader spectrum of views and more internal disagreement. Its the one key advantage that Republicans have over Democrats come election time. Republicans can be unified around singular topics or beliefs and have a strong sense of "us vs them" and their "team".

Democrats tend to be a wider spectrum ranging from social democrats to the fringe "tumblr sjw" you guys like to rant about and trot out as an example as if its the norm. But because of that spectrum democrats have a harder time unifying behind a candidate if they disagree with that candidate on anything ( see the Sanders vs Clinton crap ). Due to the two party system and nature of the electoral college though the US system of government doesn't support that sort of dissent compared to say a parliamentary system. In order for one side or the other to succeed they need to unify entirely behind a candidate whether they like that candidate or not. Anything else and you are effectively throwing your vote away ( if your vote had any meaning to begin with. Which depending on your state it may not. )

So yeah, if someone tries to trot out "femnazi sjws" or some other bullshit its easy to dismiss. Just as a few years ago if someone trotted out Alex Jones as a common example of the right it could be easily dismissed. And that, therein, is the danger of this entire election cycle and why people are sounding alarms. Trump legitimized the fringe and normalized it as a part of political discourse while he himself is essentially immune to facts. He has no shame and often not even a clear point in lying his ass off so calling him out for being dishonest has little effect.

Now, if Hillary had gone around campaigning on stage with PETA and spent every night re-tweeting tumblr at 3am you might be able to make a case for both sides being equal in this regard. But she of course did not and the left by its natural doesn't have an equivalent of the alt-right to begin with.

And that brings us to our current mess. Trump is immune to facts and his behaviour and campaign has essentially vaccinated his most fervent supports against facts. An effect magnified by social media and the spread of fake news that allowed people to stay in alternative reality bubbles. This is exceedingly dangerous to national discourse as once one side of a debate swears off facts entirely there's no discussion you can have anymore.

Thats not to say there are no reasonable Republicans, there are. But its the nature of the beast that they stick with their team at least until they win the qualifiers. The parade of Republicans trying to twist themselves on TV to support Trump but not support him was painful to watch leading up the election. But now that they won the qualifier, things are going to get ugly within the party. The GOP isn't actually going to stand for any of Trump's more ludicrous proposals ( and indeed, Trump seems disinterested in everything he promised on the campaign trail anyway ). And they have a safety valve in Pence which they can and will pull if Trump is no longer useful as a populist figurehead or finally does something heinous enough to turn the last of his supporters against him.

The problem is Trump has already let this genie out of the bottle and it will undoubtedly get worse before it gets better.









I am not gonna debate all that cuz as I stated earlier I am too tired to fully think, I haven't slept since I said I haven't slept

but so....if a libertarian is a liberal....then shouldn't the democrats be called something else
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Posted 12/8/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:

Liberals are still bitter that their savior, Hillary Clinton, isn't the president-elect. Of course, I'm generalizing when I say "liberals," but many do share that sentiment. Conservatives are essentially being persecuted by the left, and it's quite sad. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative but their behavior isn't justified. Donald Trump won using America's voting system to his advantage. The popular vote really means nothing, ultimately. Vainly "recounting" the votes won't do anything. Please, just accept reality people. Trump can't repeal the first amendment, and can't, legally, persecute the LGBT community. Trump isn't in possession of such authority. Hell, he's not even the official POTUS yet. I, like many people, do have my doubts about the legitimacy of the Trump administration; but, his term hasn't even began yet. In addition, people have always had doubts about our future president-elects. I mean, it's nothing new. I'd say give him a chance. Although I hope he doesn't get offended by a tweet and start World War III.


I am considered pretty liberal, and I think Hillary is disgusting. What is this about her being my savior?

Please, take note of how I generalized the common sentiment of liberals. It wasn't an all-inclusive statement. I mean, you can't deny that many, if not most, liberals supported Hillary Clinton. Bernie was also a popular figure, but the Democratic primary was rigged against him by Clinton's campaign. Don't take it too hard, bud.
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Posted 12/8/16

Ununoctium wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:

Liberals are still bitter that their savior, Hillary Clinton, isn't the president-elect. Of course, I'm generalizing when I say "liberals," but many do share that sentiment. Conservatives are essentially being persecuted by the left, and it's quite sad. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative but their behavior isn't justified. Donald Trump won using America's voting system to his advantage. The popular vote really means nothing, ultimately. Vainly "recounting" the votes won't do anything. Please, just accept reality people. Trump can't repeal the first amendment, and can't, legally, persecute the LGBT community. Trump isn't in possession of such authority. Hell, he's not even the official POTUS yet. I, like many people, do have my doubts about the legitimacy of the Trump administration; but, his term hasn't even began yet. In addition, people have always had doubts about our future president-elects. I mean, it's nothing new. I'd say give him a chance. Although I hope he doesn't get offended by a tweet and start World War III.


I am considered pretty liberal, and I think Hillary is disgusting. What is this about her being my savior?

Please, take note of how I generalized the common sentiment of liberals. It wasn't an all-inclusive statement. I mean, you can't deny that many, if not most, liberals supported Hillary Clinton. Bernie was also a popular figure, but the Democratic primary was rigged against him by Clinton's campaign. Don't take it too hard, bud.


I know, I was disputing the assumption that most were in support of Hillary, but most of this stems from my personal circle as well as the complete lack of online support I've seen for Hillary.
runec 
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Posted 12/8/16 , edited 12/8/16

redokami wrote:
but so....if a libertarian is a liberal....then shouldn't the democrats be called something else


I didn't mean libertarians are liberal. I was referring to political axis. Think of it as left vs right and up vs down. Liberal v Conservative and Authoritarian v Libertarian. You can be a liberal authoritarian and a conservative libertarian. Its the difference between personal freedom or self determination ( libertarian ) and government adherence / interference / facism ( authoritarian ). Its independent of left or right. But gets muddy in American politics because the right is very authoritarian in America and even the left is generally somewhat authoritarian.

Taking to extremes; Authoritarian left would be, for example, state imposed communism. While Authoritarian right would be good ol' fashion fascism. Stalin vs Hitler in other words. If you think government should stay out of people's lives and personal choices, you lean libertarian. If you think the government should impose on people's personal choices in order to enforce particular values you lean authoritarian.

To give some simple examples: "Legalize it!" would be libertarian. "Ban abortion!" would be authoritarian.

Make sense?

Ron Paul would be Libertarian Right. Bernie Sanders would be Libertarian Left.

Trump, Cruz, etc would be Authoritarian Right and even Hillary is on this side of the spectrum though only right of center. I can't think of anyone offhand in modern US politics that would be Authoritarian Left though. Its not exactly a popular orientation among Republicans or Democrats.
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Posted 12/8/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:

Liberals are still bitter that their savior, Hillary Clinton, isn't the president-elect. Of course, I'm generalizing when I say "liberals," but many do share that sentiment. Conservatives are essentially being persecuted by the left, and it's quite sad. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative but their behavior isn't justified. Donald Trump won using America's voting system to his advantage. The popular vote really means nothing, ultimately. Vainly "recounting" the votes won't do anything. Please, just accept reality people. Trump can't repeal the first amendment, and can't, legally, persecute the LGBT community. Trump isn't in possession of such authority. Hell, he's not even the official POTUS yet. I, like many people, do have my doubts about the legitimacy of the Trump administration; but, his term hasn't even began yet. In addition, people have always had doubts about our future president-elects. I mean, it's nothing new. I'd say give him a chance. Although I hope he doesn't get offended by a tweet and start World War III.


I am considered pretty liberal, and I think Hillary is disgusting. What is this about her being my savior?

Please, take note of how I generalized the common sentiment of liberals. It wasn't an all-inclusive statement. I mean, you can't deny that many, if not most, liberals supported Hillary Clinton. Bernie was also a popular figure, but the Democratic primary was rigged against him by Clinton's campaign. Don't take it too hard, bud.


I know, I was disputing the assumption that most were in support of Hillary, but most of this stems from my personal circle as well as the complete lack of online support I've seen for Hillary.


I understand what you're saying. However, if you were ever on Facebook during the election; you'd notice an overwhelming amount of posts in support of Clinton. You'd probably also see a lot of posts bashing Donald Trump. I never paid any attention to such gibberish, but it was prevalent nonetheless. Also, I personally don't understand the worries of liberals and the LGBT community. Donald Trump isn't yet POTUS, and he can't repeal amendments. It's just like how many were worried that Clinton would take away their guns. When, in reality, she would never have the capability to do so even if she were president. I think people just need to chill and accept reality, or they could at least calm down a little. Either way, I just wish there wasn't so much hate floating around.
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Posted 12/8/16
I have noticed the growing trend of online liberals using ad-hominems over actual debate whenever I run across discussions. Kind of sad to see happening.
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Posted 12/8/16

Ununoctium wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:

Liberals are still bitter that their savior, Hillary Clinton, isn't the president-elect. Of course, I'm generalizing when I say "liberals," but many do share that sentiment. Conservatives are essentially being persecuted by the left, and it's quite sad. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative but their behavior isn't justified. Donald Trump won using America's voting system to his advantage. The popular vote really means nothing, ultimately. Vainly "recounting" the votes won't do anything. Please, just accept reality people. Trump can't repeal the first amendment, and can't, legally, persecute the LGBT community. Trump isn't in possession of such authority. Hell, he's not even the official POTUS yet. I, like many people, do have my doubts about the legitimacy of the Trump administration; but, his term hasn't even began yet. In addition, people have always had doubts about our future president-elects. I mean, it's nothing new. I'd say give him a chance. Although I hope he doesn't get offended by a tweet and start World War III.


I am considered pretty liberal, and I think Hillary is disgusting. What is this about her being my savior?

Please, take note of how I generalized the common sentiment of liberals. It wasn't an all-inclusive statement. I mean, you can't deny that many, if not most, liberals supported Hillary Clinton. Bernie was also a popular figure, but the Democratic primary was rigged against him by Clinton's campaign. Don't take it too hard, bud.


I know, I was disputing the assumption that most were in support of Hillary, but most of this stems from my personal circle as well as the complete lack of online support I've seen for Hillary.


I understand what you're saying. However, if you were ever on Facebook during the election; you'd notice an overwhelming amount of posts in support of Clinton. You'd probably also see a lot of posts bashing Donald Trump. I never paid any attention to such gibberish, but it was prevalent nonetheless. Also, I personally don't understand the worries of liberals and the LGBT community. Donald Trump isn't yet POTUS, and he can't repeal amendments. It's just like how many were worried that Clinton would take away their guns. When, in reality, she would never have the capability to do so even if she were president. I think people just need to chill and accept reality, or they could at least calm down a little. Either way, I just wish there wasn't so much hate floating around.


Ah, then our definitions differ. Many people supported Hillary as a lesser evil rather than due to shared beliefs. I don't use much social media for a similar reason. Just a trendy hatestorm if you ask me. I don't believe Trump to be all that bad on LGBT rights. They're pretty consistent and tolerant, hence statements like those about letting Caitlyn Jenner use HIS bathroom.

I am worried about Mike Pence on that issue however. I would argue it isn't the outright appeal of the basic amendments, it is how you define their limits. His inclusion of a supreme court judge could go a long way to do so to making that a reality.
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Posted 12/8/16 , edited 12/8/16
It's called the "Backfire Effect." If you try to enlighten someone with facts and evidence that counter their position, it will not bring them around, because while human beings can be logical, we also have pride, and would rather die than admit to a foe we are wrong. If you show someone evidence to the contrary, they just dig their heels in deeper. It's useless. And internet forums -- like this one -- are where those divides grow wider and wider.
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Posted 12/8/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ununoctium wrote:

Liberals are still bitter that their savior, Hillary Clinton, isn't the president-elect. Of course, I'm generalizing when I say "liberals," but many do share that sentiment. Conservatives are essentially being persecuted by the left, and it's quite sad. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative but their behavior isn't justified. Donald Trump won using America's voting system to his advantage. The popular vote really means nothing, ultimately. Vainly "recounting" the votes won't do anything. Please, just accept reality people. Trump can't repeal the first amendment, and can't, legally, persecute the LGBT community. Trump isn't in possession of such authority. Hell, he's not even the official POTUS yet. I, like many people, do have my doubts about the legitimacy of the Trump administration; but, his term hasn't even began yet. In addition, people have always had doubts about our future president-elects. I mean, it's nothing new. I'd say give him a chance. Although I hope he doesn't get offended by a tweet and start World War III.


I am considered pretty liberal, and I think Hillary is disgusting. What is this about her being my savior?

Please, take note of how I generalized the common sentiment of liberals. It wasn't an all-inclusive statement. I mean, you can't deny that many, if not most, liberals supported Hillary Clinton. Bernie was also a popular figure, but the Democratic primary was rigged against him by Clinton's campaign. Don't take it too hard, bud.


I know, I was disputing the assumption that most were in support of Hillary, but most of this stems from my personal circle as well as the complete lack of online support I've seen for Hillary.


I understand what you're saying. However, if you were ever on Facebook during the election; you'd notice an overwhelming amount of posts in support of Clinton. You'd probably also see a lot of posts bashing Donald Trump. I never paid any attention to such gibberish, but it was prevalent nonetheless. Also, I personally don't understand the worries of liberals and the LGBT community. Donald Trump isn't yet POTUS, and he can't repeal amendments. It's just like how many were worried that Clinton would take away their guns. When, in reality, she would never have the capability to do so even if she were president. I think people just need to chill and accept reality, or they could at least calm down a little. Either way, I just wish there wasn't so much hate floating around.


Ah, then our definitions differ. Many people supported Hillary as a lesser evil rather than due to shared beliefs. I don't use much social media for a similar reason. Just a trendy hatestorm if you ask me. I don't believe Trump to be all that bad on LGBT rights. They're pretty consistent and tolerant, hence statements like those about letting Caitlyn Jenner use HIS bathroom.

I am worried about Mike Pence on that issue however. I would argue it isn't the outright appeal of the basic amendments, it is how you define their limits. His inclusion of a supreme court judge could go a long way to do so to making that a reality.


America is in a precarious situation indeed. From what I saw of Pence, he was very calm and collected. A veritable polar opposite of Donald Trump. However, even if he appoints a bigot for a supreme court judge, that's only one of nine judges. I am terrified of a bible thumper being appointed in the position of a supreme court judge. However, the future is unpredictable, and therefore we cannot deduce what shall really happen. It could be that nothing may come of it, or it could result in a total social rebellion. Also, the Bill of Rights isn't something to scoff at. I don't think we, as a society, would allow such obvious prejudices to dictate our laws.
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