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Post Reply hillary (maybe) will run for 2020
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Posted 12/10/16
Joe Biden mentioned possibly running in 2020 last week. If he runs Clinton won't run against him.
Humms 
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Posted 12/10/16
No she won't.

There will never be a woman president, because who else can actually run that can fund their campaign? That's what I thought.

Are you triggered Yet?
Posted 12/10/16
Personally, if she's even alive in 2020, I'd be fairly surprised. Already, her age is hitting her hard, much less, four years from now.
Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/10/16

neugenx wrote:

Joe Biden mentioned possibly running in 2020 last week. If he runs Clinton won't run against him.


My favorite Biden moment, out of MANY, was when he was giving a speech and asked a guy in a wheelchair to stand up and take a bow.
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Posted 12/10/16

Xxanthar wrote:


neugenx wrote:

Joe Biden mentioned possibly running in 2020 last week. If he runs Clinton won't run against him.


My favorite Biden moment, out of MANY, was when he was giving a speech and asked a guy in a wheelchair to stand up and take a bow.


I remember that . It was his "Dan Quayle" moment.
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Posted 12/10/16



Humms wrote:

No she won't.

There will never be a woman president, because who else can actually run that can fund their campaign? That's what I thought.

Are you triggered Yet?


Reminder that this intelligent, high-energy, hardworking beast SHATTERED the glass ceiling by becoming the first victorious female campaign manager! We just have to have a GOOD female candidate not a bad one.



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Posted 12/10/16
As a left-leaning democrat, I'm going to say her shooting for a third run would be disastrous. At its core, the Republican party has basically devoted the past 20-some years to trying the deface the Clinton name, be it Hillary or Bill, with scandal and controversy, often laden with hypocrisy. Patraeus even being entertained as a Secretary of State candidate highlights one such example of the latter. So, be it emails, Benghazi, or whomever Slick Willy diddled in the Oval Office, those will forever be the rally points of opposition no matter how much they've been proven wrong or non-effectual.

That said, the democrats aren't exactly in a good place when it comes to propping up new blood, either. Even if Chelsea is interested, I don't want her because of the baggage her name will carry even if she had zero to do with it all. Certainly, there are darlings like Biden, Warren, or even Sanders, but their ages are a valid concern. Off the top of my head, Cory Booker seems to be the only younger guy with some degree of national fame, but whether or not he's actually ready or even willing is something we'll not know until it happens. One man, however, is not enough for a party to make. And for the moment, the democratic machine doesn't seem interested in change of leadership despite the fact they just lost an election they should have easily won. In any other field, you could probably bet heads would be rolling.

When it comes to people feeling offended about being called racist, xenophobic, and all that, I know I tend to be of two minds on the issue. The first in that a lack of protest for Trump's behavior suggests tolerance, at minimum. That might not be the same as open acceptance, but apparently it wasn't a deal breaker. The second, is if one voted for him precisely because he wasn't PC, you can't just double back and cry foul when put under the same microscope. Supporters essentially encouraged that loss of filter by, again, not protesting his behavior. So, while this whole Whitelash thing may be a very real sentiment, there is a fine line between wanting fair representation and trying to quell that of others. And that's certainly apparent when it comes to things like the wall that'll never happen, registries, deportations, and so on.

Continuing from my perspective, the way in which he's setting up his overall court is frightening, further so with the upcoming republican majority. The Supreme Court pick was one of the big reasons I tried to urge people toward Hillary if they seemed undecided, as it'll be one of the more lasting selections under his office. Another 1 or 2 seats also may open up as the years pass. Things like the Heartbeat Bill here in Ohio are just one of those angles of religious influence that tend to be more apparent in the GOP, and no matter how much the founders wanted to keep church and state separate, somehow we keep erring toward Christianity being the inspiration of law when it comes to women's rights and homosexuality. Economically, this Carrier deal isn't the boon some would want us to believe, with the lower-skilled labor being the ones shipped out with the jobs remaining now largely being slotted to get automated in the future, thus delaying the inevitable. Draining the swamp, as Trump claimed he was going to do, is also becoming more difficult to perceive as he stacks more and more millionaires, people without qualifications, or even those opposed to the offices (and suing) they're taking up. The pipe dream of trickle down economics that the struggling working class who voted for him hopes will come to fruition, simply put, will not. There is nothing guaranteeing that tax cuts to the wealthy will have them diverting that wealth back into us. They will simply hoard it while continuing to oppose raises to the minimum wage and busting/discouraging the formation of unions, and further influencing laws and regulations to better line their pockets.

I'm white. I'm a dude. I'm straight. I'm still worried. I can only empathize with those who are not feel about the coming 4 years. There's a lot that needs to happen for the country that simply will not because old guard thinking is still being empowered. You won't be seeing the electoral college going away this cycle because it's benefited the republicans twice within the past 2 decades. For all the shit Obamacare gets, many are quick to forget its origins/similarity to Romneycare and the continued gutting it received by the GOP, in part, to simply spite Obama. Anyone else remember threatening to shut down the government? I do. Why are people like Rubio allowed to continue in their position with terrible attendance records like he had? And Trump is now mirroring that with the skipping of security briefings. We won't be seeing restrictions to lobbying or even the installation of term limits to curb politics being a for-profit career path instead of a service to the people one is voted to represent. Make America Great Again? Pardon me as I scoff. I'll honestly be surprised if there's not an impeachment or resignation before 2020, and even then, Pence at the helm is a Nightmare mode of its own. Recent rumblings of Russian meddling are also not at all surprising, though I'm sure we'll just be told to let it go because the election is over, 54% of the voting populace is just a bunch of sore losers, etc..

Honestly, I'd lock myself up in the SAO universe risking death if it meant I could just get out of this political quagmire we call reality.
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Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/10/16

runec wrote:

Okay, you really need to ditch that meme. She's now about up to Obama in votes received. Which means she's on par with having received the most votes of any candidate in US history. She did not lose to driving anyone away. She did not screw up big time. She was not a terrible candidate. She lost to the electoral college on razor thin margins in an unprecedented election for its level of fuckery, dishonesty, disinformation and foreign interference.

This is the biggest split in popular vs electoral votes since farking 1876.


Clinton's share of the 18-29 year old vote was 55%, which is substantially lower than Obama's in either 2012 (67%) or 2008 (66%). Her share of the black vote was also lower, getting 88% compared to Obama's 93% in 2012. For the record, that's on par with John Kerry's performance and worse than Al Gore's performance with black voters. According to exit polling Clinton got a 36% margin among Latinos to Obama's 44% in 2012, so there's more underperformance. Finally, middle class voters rallied for Obama in droves in 2008 and 2012 , but either didn't turn out for Clinton or went solidly for Trump in 2016. Pew has nicely set up a table illustrating just this point as part of an entire article on the subject:



So, how does that underperformance, particularly among middle class voters in traditionally Democratic bastions, translate into Clinton's defeat, and what does it have to do with candidate selection? Here's the Democratic primary race by county and candidate:



here's the 2016 general election map by state:



and now the 2012 map by state and county:



See how the maps indicate that Sanders had a good chance at sustaining places Trump swiped away from Clinton instead? See how places deep in historically red territory that went hard for Clinton instead of Sanders in the primary nevertheless went for Trump just like they usually do once the general rolled around? We need a better idea of what was going on at the ground level and a bit of electoral historical context to make sense of that.

Let's go through a checklist for one of the communities on that Pew list. Wausau, WI is in Marathon County, which actually has some pretty telling electoral results for the question we're examining.

- Obama won Marathon County in both the 2008 Democratic primary and general elections
- Sanders won Marathon County in the 2016 Democratic primary
- Clinton lost Marathon County in the 2008 and 2016 Democratic primaries and then again in the 2016 general

Edit: I mistakenly assigned Obama a win in 2012 for Marathon county. He lost the county.

So unless I'm missing a race somewhere Clinton has lost every single race she's ever run in Marathon County while other candidates on the left have been able to secure wins there. Voter turnout was pretty high there this year (about 87%), amounting to nearly 70,000 total ballots cast.

http://www.co.marathon.wi.us/Departments/CountyClerk/Elections/Results.aspx

But that's just one county in Wisconsin. Surely Democrats as a whole didn't have a problem with their candidate, right? Well, actually 9% of self-identified Democrats voted for Trump rather than Clinton, and Marathon County is a microcosm of just such Democrats. Its economy is pretty dependent on manufacturing, it's principally white, it's pretty soundly middle class, and there are universities there. What was the difference between candidates like Obama and Sanders compared to Clinton with those voters? They've told the Democratic Party's elites and diehard Clinton supporters several times now.

When labourers say they're concerned about trade deals diminishing their collective bargaining power and eliminating opportunities to establish work contracts they're met with a chorus of accusations that they're racists. When young people say they're mired in debt they're having difficulty repaying, that the figures for the stock market and unemployment aren't reflective of their living conditions, and that they're deeply concerned about corruption in the government they're met with a chorus of accusations that they're entitled, ignorant, stupid, naive, and (of course) sexists and racists. When people say they'd prefer a single-payer system (and the polling indicates that most people supporting the ACA, i.e. Democrats, actually would) they're attacked as naive and entitled. When the concessions Clinton granted to win these peoples' appeal were confirmed to be every bit as hollow as their recipients had suspected they were these groups were inundated in red baiting, gas-lighting, and yes, more accusations of entitlement, ignorance, selfishness, sexism, and racism.

A Democrat who ended up voting for Trump articulated in a recent interview everything that's wrong with the party: they took votes and then forgot about the voters. You can only expect people to accept the lesser evil argument consistently for so long, Runec, and you for damned sure can't insult, mock, and slander them along the way while still expecting party loyalty. Eventually people will start looking elsewhere if they're not finding what they want with the Democrats.

The future lies with the Sanders, the Warrens, and the Gabbards of the party, not with the Clintons. The party must adapt to the new environment or it will perish.

Edit: Removed the phrase "the Kerrys" from the second to last sentence since it could be distracting from the main point.
Posted 12/10/16
Sanders and Warren are REALLY big socialists. I don't think they will sit well with most of the country in a general election. It'll be hard to win with the huge tax hikes that they will dump on us.
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Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/10/16
She's such a horrible candidate that she lost to Trump, and people still think she should run?

Stupidity just knows no bounds whatsoever, Hillary herself included.
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Posted 12/10/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Would a younger Bernie Sanders stand up? Granted, you might not like democratic welfare or socialism, but Sanders wasn't a "democrat" like Hillary was.


See, my issue with having Socialists (I am a socialist) run for president is Americans don't know the difference between socialism and communism and they get lumped into one group. I don't feel like having to deal with the ignorance surrounding that. That and getting my hopes up only to have them crushed.
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Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/10/16

Xxanthar wrote:

Sanders and Warren are REALLY big socialists. I don't think they will sit well with most of the country in a general election. It'll be hard to win with the huge tax hikes that they will dump on us.


A plurality of people support making public colleges and universities tuition free (47% to 45%, with 9% undecided), and there are polls emerging that indicate people are supportive both of the idea that all people should have health coverage (51% yes to 47% no) and that a single-payer healthcare system ought to be put into place (73% to 22% among Democrats and 41% to 55% among Republicans). You can muddy the waters a bit by using particular phrases, such as "government run healthcare system", and the polling reflects this with a mixed record depending on how the question is asked (asking about a "government run" versus "private" healthcare system produces a majority favouring private at 55% to 41%). The long and short of it is that people at least seem receptive to the idea of guaranteeing education and healthcare to everyone regardless of ability to pay, and they're open to the government having a role in doing that even if they don't think the government should be in total control of the effort. With proper advocacy and the right candidate it is very possible for social democratic institutions (which is what Bernie Sanders was really advocating, as opposed to socialism proper) to be put into place.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx

http://www.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/189902/american-public-opinion-sanders-proposal-single-payer-healthcare-system.aspx?g_source=healthcare&g_medium=search&g_campaign=tiles

http://www.gallup.com/poll/191255/americans-buy-free-pre-split-tuition-free-college.aspx

As for taxes, budget adjustments and elimination of waste would go a long way to reducing the amount of receipts that would have to be generated, and the rest could be raised with things like transaction taxes on public stock trading. Sanders' tax proposal didn't include an increase in individual income tax rates for most earners, and the 90% personal income tax figure was totally made up.

Finally, voters 35 and under seemed to be pretty impressed with Sanders and supported him very strongly, his approval was very high throughout the election cycle, and his polling figures in matchups against his two most likely Republican opponents (Trump and Cruz) were extremely good even up into June. He was ahead of Trump by 20 points in some polls. If this isn't something that takes hold in the next couple of election cycles it's probably something that will take hold soon after. You just can't have a generational cohort so strongly behind a particular set of ideas and not eventually start heading in that direction. Barring a shift in those priorities and preferences this is going to happen eventually.
Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/10/16
What is the percentage of people who pay no income tax at all? Pretty sure they would be all for free handouts. What percentage of those polled were actually U.S. citizens and not one of the 20+ million illegal immigrants? Now I don't have lots of polls (many of the same polls that were proven to be garbage this election cycle.) and shit I can pull out of my ass, but I can tell you that the working class is fed up paying for free handouts to people, many of whom are not even citizens.

Obamacare has decimated full time employment, and foreign workers have taken away a good chunk of high paying tech jobs while premiums have gone through the roof for Obamacare. While most working Americans can't even afford the most basic of plans, the poor and illegal immigrants get better coverage that's mostly paid for by subsidies. Single payer system will cause doctor shortages, poorer quality care, massive waiting lists for procedures and cause countless deaths just like the VA. There is a reason why people from Canada and Europe travel to the USA for medical procedures. and it's not because the nurses are hotter.

Also Americans are not going to pay the outrageous tuition costs for the lazy people and non-citizens. Do you think we want to fill the wallets of greedy tenured professors who teach kids to hate the country that pays for them to attend school? Where are all these free college graduates going to work? A degree from a college will become worthless if everyone has one.

The day all this 'free' stuff gets handed out, is the day I quit work and become a leech like everyone else. Good luck paying for everything without the taxes coming in from the many fed up workers.

If you want to experience the greatness of socialism, head south to Venezuela where money is so worthless they use it to wipe their ass because it's cheaper than toilet paper. See how things are going in Brazil or any other socialist country around the world. Socialism is a lie and it ALWAYS fails miserably.

I'm sure pretty polls, graphs may sway some of the idiots out there, but not the people who actually work for a living and have to pay taxes, bills, mortgages, tuition, medical insurance, property taxes, gas taxes, estate taxes, and the countless other taxes and fees the government uses to rape us with. If you want 'free' stuff go stay in prison. Everything is free there.

To sum it up, you ain't taking anymore of the money I earn cause there isn't anything left to take after the yearly government ass reaming.
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Posted 12/10/16

Jamming777 wrote:

Well Nixon won after losing to JFK, look how well that turned out


Even with the tapes, they didn't have as much evidence with Nixon...
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Posted 12/11/16

Xxanthar wrote:

Sanders and Warren are REALLY big socialists. I don't think they will sit well with most of the country in a general election. It'll be hard to win with the huge tax hikes that they will dump on us.


Well, he is popular, and a lot of this will depend on the outcome of Trump's and the GOP's policies and agendas, but even if they wreck those systems: I have absolutely no doubt that my grandparents would vote for its destruction, and I know so many people in the 50+ bracket who'd do the same as well. All you would need to do is have a business suit and be a registered Republican on and say "the government is broke, so less taxes is the answer." And, all of it will be my fault regardless when things turn sour for them...
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