First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Next  Last
Post Reply People on this forum need to learn how to make actual points in a real discussion
30953 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M / Bundaberg, Queens...
Offline
Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/10/16

nanikore2 wrote:

So you disagree with a textbook definition? Please elaborate.


No i disagree with your opinion that he was misusing it and again "but that is a seperate conversation i do not wish to spike because i don't want to deal with ignorance by choice."
192 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M
Offline
Posted 12/10/16
The fact is you can't change how people think, and you can't change what they do.

When it comes to a disscussion, there will always be two kinds of people. Those that are there to contribute, and those that are their simply because they want to show they are right, and that only their opinion matters. That nothing anyone says can possibly prove them wrong.

When it comes to the latter, to the "trolls", in the end it's best to just disregard them, and move on to those who actually want to contribute.
6237 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / O / US
Offline
Posted 12/10/16
I'm a dirty essjaydubbayew, I won't get far here, honestly. So, I'm just here to discuss anything but politics.

*fart noises*
27021 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / Wales, UK
Online
Posted 12/10/16

ARKriderMax wrote:

The fact is you can't change how people think, and you can't change what they do.

When it comes to a disscussion, there will always be two kinds of people. Those that are there to contribute, and those that are their simply because they want to show they are right, and that only their opinion matters. That nothing anyone says can possibly prove them wrong.

When it comes to the latter, to the "trolls", in the end it's best to just disregard them, and move on to those who actually want to contribute.


I think that's a false dichotomy, everyone has aspects of both and the latter aren't really "trolls". Human beings are subject to bias; we're much more certain we're right about any particular issue than we actually should be, and when we're challenged on it it feels like an attack that we have to respond to rather than a mutually beneficial discussion we can contribute to.

Separating them into two categories makes bias seem like something belonging to other people, which lets us fool ourselves into forgetting our own biases.

Also I think a "troll" is something else; it's grown to be broad and vague enough to be anyone who's mean on the internet, but a classic troll is intentionally aggravating people for fun. In an internet debate, they don't care about what they're arguing for, in fact they see "actually caring about things on the internet" as a sin that they're here to punish by, among other things, making aggravatingly bad arguments.
6564 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M
Offline
Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/31/16

nanikore2 wrote:

I've been avoiding this for quite a while, but I don't think I should delay addressing this any further.

The most frustrating thing about the forums here on Crunchyroll, or perhaps the only thing that actually frustrates me on these forums, is that people here don't know how to actually make points in a discussion.

I'm not going to make this Discussion 101 and teach a class or something, so I'm just going to be brief by going straight to the biggest and most frequent offenses I see.

AVOID the following:

1. Arguing from assertion. <--- worst and most prolific offense

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

X is true (because I say so.)

X is true because Y is true, and Y is true because I stated it.

When you make a point. You need to back up your statements. No, it doesn't count when you back up something you say simply with something else that you haven't bothered backing up with.

When you're trying to make a point, be prepared to support what you say. A claim has to be substantiated.

See this post as an example
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-954793/artificial-consciousness-is-impossible

Everything stated within depends on something else being true, which are in turn backed up. To challenge the statement, one would then need to challenge the truth of what is backing it up. Yes, some people challenged The Chinese Room thought experiment itself and how it was presented, which then I defended via subsequent argumentation.

Of course, I don't demand such effort in day to day discussions, but at least don't just argue from assertion and expect the other person (or at least me) to just take it as a point made.


2. Ad hominem

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

A person's attributes (e.g. age, sex, occupation) has nothing to do with the point that is being presented. Attempting to discredit points being made by discrediting people is an attack on the person. I run into this more towards the back ends of the threads where I sometimes have to call in the forum nannies to remind people to NOT do it.

Politicians get away with it with their rhetoric, but that doesn't mean you should adopt it as a norm of discussion.


3. Argumentum ad lapidem

The claim X is false because it's ridiculous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_lapidem

You can't dismiss something as ridiculous or absurd and stop right there without an explanation of its absurdity. Again, your arguments must in the very least have substance.


4. Association fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy <--- another prolific and irritating offense

X is somehow said to have characteristics of Y in a superficial manner
therefore, X and Y are of the same kind.

You can't lump two things together just because of some characteristics which you think those two things share.

1. The characteristics may or may not be superficial in the entire set of characteristics
2. The characteristics may be the results of subjective impression and/or opinion




Last but definitely NOT least, because so many people have used this on me:

5. "I proved you wrong already!" (...NO. I already stated rejoinders and/or counterarguments in response)

Just because you offered a counterargument doesn't mean you 'proved" anything. The response to another counterargument isn't "I proved it!" or "many other people in the thread proved it too!" but to provide a better point which is superior in quality (e.g. in logic, in explanatory power, in substantiation, et cetera) to the previous point in the argument. When you have one answer, that's not the end! Be prepared for another answer from the other side.

Some people in this forum clearly do not understand what a "proof" is, or what a counterargument is.

The worst example of this was when someone pasted a Quora link to some neuroscientist making a claim counter to mine. I subsequently posted a link to a textbook explaining how that samesaid scientist misused the terms under discussion which rendered his point useless. Then the CR user kept saying over and over how "I have proved you wrong! Others in the forums have proved you wrong! I already showed you (with that link with the bad argument) that you're wrong! It's useless for anyone to argue with you!"

That wasn't the first or last time it has happened.



I really want to say to people, "please, learn how to make an actual argument" but it's probably not likely to make a dent unless they're actually interested in doing so. In that case, consider this a rant. Whether people want to make valid arguments is entirely up to themselves.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AH-HA AH-HA.....*Wheeze*-AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA *caughs* whooooooooooooooo- *sighs* oh wow that was good, I needed that today.



HateKillingCamels wrote:

I wish I had things worth saying in a discussion, then I might actually need a guide.


This guy is LITERALLY THE ONLY ONE WHO GETS IT and the rest of you are so full of sh*t that you argue a point that isn't even-hehe phhhhhhht hehehe *clears throat* excuse me I was laughing at you all again for being so high on yourselves that messing with you isn't even a challenge. I mean it's like one step forward then just run backwards in a circle arguing theoretical bs I mean you're not Einstein, Aristotle, or the guy who invented math you're just a bunch of couch potatos who think you're special because you know big words, or you made a 100 on all your spelling tests.

C'mon get real people. Lets be honest you're just a bunch of holier-than-thou brats who just can't grow up and take your medicine.
192 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M
Offline
Posted 12/10/16

Rowan93 wrote:


but a classic troll is intentionally aggravating people for fun. In an internet debate, they don't care about what they're arguing for, in fact they see "actually caring about things on the internet" as a sin that they're here to punish by, among other things, making aggravatingly bad arguments.


That's really what I was focusing on with the latter half. The ones who care, whether or not they are right, will try to provide reasonable, realistic, and intellectual rebuttals to what someone says. Those people are worth discussing with, as often, they are at least partially right, and are able to show where you are wrong,

The ones who don't really care, will just keep pushing their opinion, and won't even consider what someone else says as having even a lick or truth. These people can either be the ones who start the conversation, or ones who but into it. If they start the conversation, it's best for you to back out, and if they butt in, you can try to talk to them, but in the end it's generally best to let them ramble on, as trying to counteract what they say will only bring undue grief to those around.
25792 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
30 / M / Atlanta, GA, USA
Offline
Posted 12/10/16
The OP is expecting all of us to be as amazing as BlueOni... that's very demanding!
33428 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / Inside your compu...
Offline
Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/10/16

Ryulightorb wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

The person on Quora misused definitions.




No i disagree with your opinion that he was misusing it and again if you can't read "but that is a seperate conversation i do not wish to spike because i don't want to deal with ignorance by choice."



I'll bookmark this for the next time you forget that you're the one who didn't respond to "fact".

The hypocrisy is yours, and it's doubly hypocritical of you to even mention hypocrisy now. Unless you are ready to address the definition again, do not go into this again.
Posted 12/10/16
or else what?
Humms 
12715 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / M / CAN, ON
Offline
Posted 12/10/16
Oh ok.

2+2 =4 because someone else said so in a textbook, and I give credit to them for that answer, because they are the only ones to have a solid textbook argument.

Ok.

Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/31/16
Someone should read their own guidelines to making a point.
5869 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
19 / O / Korriban
Offline
Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/31/16
So, the overall guidelines are pretty great actually...but everything after that first post is kind of not...I must apologize, but arguing over a point with someone continually repeating that it is not something he wishes to revive seems exceptionally petty.

Anyway, the guidelines themselves are great, but most people probably won't care, sadly
Posted 12/10/16 , edited 12/31/16
Nobody is obligated to follow any rules or guidelines here unless they are from Crunchyroll. Site Rules
Posted 12/10/16

Xxanthar wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:


Xxanthar wrote:

What's your point?


Learn how to argue correctly.


Correct according to you? Were you appointed debate moderator while I was sleeping? This is not a debate forum, it's open discussion. I'm sorry if my posts do not fall within you excepted standards, but I don't really care about your standards.


> I'm quoting this cause i agree. ^
> Are you a current moderator on here? Nanikore2 telling us in open forums how to type and express?
33428 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / Inside your compu...
Offline
Posted 12/10/16

Xxanthar wrote:

Nobody is obligated to follow any rules or guidelines here unless they are from Crunchyroll. Site Rules


" A little extra conversation in threads can be nice but be careful not to go so far off topic as to derail the discussion."

Are we done with the metatopic?
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.