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Post Reply Why are alot of Americans selfish when it comes to taxes?
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Posted 1/10/17

Xxanthar wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


Xxanthar wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


That's fair enough i don't believe in the same ideaology i guess i believe everyone can do with some help to a degree.


Many people become dependent on that help and don't bother to work again.


Which is why systems need to be in place.

Where i live to get and sort of support you need proof you are trying to find a job or work to some degree


They used to have strict rules with welfare and disability, but after 8 years of bush and then 8 years of Obama and now even millions of Illegal non-citizens get some sort of government assistance.


which really needs some sort of fixing.
bozton 
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Posted 1/10/17
If you want to know more about the American point of view, read Ayn Rand's "Atlas shrugged." Even if you don't agree with her, this book shaped the current stances of our Republican, and Conservative party.

Here is the spark notes if you don't want to read a 1500 something page book, http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/atlasshrugged/
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Posted 1/11/17
It's because here in America money is valued more than anything. The majority of people here only do things to either get money, or to look better to other people.
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Posted 1/11/17 , edited 1/11/17
You have to understand. Due to our history and founding how we came out of the British Empire due to unjust representation Americans are extremely skeptical of government, and there is some merit to this, because by nature anything ran through government is more inefficient than anything run outside government because when the government is involved you are adding a 3rd party and a middle man that will eat some of the resources.

In regards to healthcare it's rather a debate of the most effective means of providing for the poor. Those that are advocating for less government more believe that charity is a more efficient and better method for providing for those in need while those who debate for more government are concerned in the potential gaps that charity may miss.

Both systems have weaknesses of greed. In regards to charity the poor don't receive the help that they need if the rich become greedy, but likewise in regards to government everyone is negatively affected if the politicians are greedy.

Frankly the latter is a much bigger problem in America at the moment.
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Posted 1/11/17
Another thing to consider is some Americans have become so very different that we no longer consider each other the same. I'm sure New Yorkers wouldn't see themselves as American as Californians nor vice versa. I believe even those within New York the State get upset when they get lumped into New York the City when people describe "New York" as a whole. Being told to support a city with a state tax or having the city support the state makes some people upset since at it's very core it's less help, and more redistribution of wealth.

Let the working work harder to support those who work for less, instead of having those who work for less transit to better opportunities or create something themselves. American Culture's make something of yourself has been a classic American Dream from the foundation, for good and ill. The share aspect is what charity was created for, not taxes. Yet taxes take ever more and more away from those who work or create, dis-incentivizing those who would like to make the world a better place by taking away their ability to support themselves and using those funds to get lost in the paperwork.

Relativity is important to state here as well. If you make $3000 and you only need $2000 to live, you can afford to lose 1/3 of your income. You could not however take an inspiring idea and turn it into a success or failure if you require all that $2000. The same living arrangements but you make $6000. You still lose 1/3, but that extra $2000 can be used by you to donate to charity, or create some ultralight communication system, or invest in better infrastructure locally, something YOU choose, not something that paperwork and red tape use. It's nice if the bus system is renovated, but if that bus system makes -$9000 a month and has a passenger list you can count on two hands than your tax has not helped anyone, in fact your requirement to pay to it is hindering yourself and possibly others who would benefit from a different item.


SupersunZeratul wrote:

You have to understand. Due to our history and founding how we came out of the British Empire due to unjust representation Americans are extremely skeptical of government, and there is some merit to this, because by nature anything ran through government is more inefficient than anything run outside government because when the government is involved you are adding a 3rd party and a middle man that will eat some of the resources.

In regards to healthcare it's rather a debate of the most effective means of providing for the poor. Those that are advocating for less government more believe that charity is a more efficient and better method for providing for those in need while those who debate for more government are concerned in the potential gaps that charity may miss.

Both systems have weaknesses of greed. In regards to charity the poor don't receive the help that they need if the rich become greedy, but likewise in regards to government everyone is negatively affected if the politicians are greedy.

Frankly the latter is a much bigger problem in America at the moment.


I've heard stories of someone from Canada going to a doctor in USA and he found something that the Canadian Doctor had missed, and stories of people going to Spain or Mexico to get a procedure done for FAR cheaper than they would in the USA. In regards to charities, if the charity is found to be greedy, people should (no guarantees) stop donating, thus making said charity unable to even pretend to help the poor and downtrodden. In government "tax charity" we have no choice if they use the money correctly or not, they take it and we cannot stop giving them money to find a better alternative.
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Posted 1/11/17
Middle class is often jealous because they think everyone else is getting a better deal. Rich often think they can put the money to better use. In both groups, the are folks that think the money is wasted on the poorer groups. And among all, there's plenty of "us vs them"; since everyone's entitled to their own facts/version of history, that probably won't improve. Also, many feel separated from government; so it makes sense they wouldn't want to send money there. But it'll all work out... it's not like "divided we fall" was ever a thing.
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Posted 1/11/17 , edited 1/11/17
Of course, this whole discussion is predicated on a false premise.
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Posted 1/11/17 , edited 1/11/17

gornotck wrote:

Of course, this whole discussion is predicated on a false premise.


I was trying to avoid opening the "Healthcare is a right" can of worms lol.
Posted 1/11/17


The interesting thing is that I encountered this quite a bit in England, as well, when I worked/lived there. A lot of people were disgruntled because they spend so much time working, getting overtaxed, and some people getting paid more than they do to do nothing. It isn't just Americans that struggle with this kind of mentality. "Greed" and "jealousy" are the two emotions that seem to surface first when you begin to talk about this situation. It boils down to two things:

  • Working Hard - Getting Less Pay - In places like Canada, America, and England/UK there are people who are diligently working their asses off for what is seemingly an endless amount of time just to make ends meet. Because of national healthcare and welfare programs, those who work feel that it should be a requirement (to work) in order to qualify for these things because they're jealous of those who don't work and strive without any complications.
  • Exploited Welfare Programs - People who simply "linger" on the welfare programs in all three of these countries are looked down upon. In England, there are many people who simply exploit/manipulate Jobseekers Allowance - in the US, women are having children just to get more money from Social Security.. so on and so on. As long as there are systems, people will exploit them. We just need to figure out a way to minimize the amount of "exploiters".


Essentially, the issue boils down to the fact that people don't like the idea of doing the hardwork while someone else is using that money. Personally, I don't care either way. I don't view it as "my money is paying for that" when it's not money I'd ever see anyways. I don't control how the US or British government handles their tax money. Those who think "I'm paying for that!" are usually the types who think that they have any control over how their tax dollars are spent, which isn't the case at all.

Welfare programs generally are manipulated on the state level, not a national one (although, many of them are initiated at the national level, just that the state determines how much funding to put into that program). In that sense, I'm only paying about $4,500 a year for those in my state (via state income tax) to be able to go to public schools, ride public transit, keep roads nice and tidy, any welfare programs, and whatever else the government in my state pays for. I paid $15,500 or so to the federal government (in income tax) this year to keep the national welfare programs going, pay towards our deficit, and whatever else the national government wants to spend my tax dollars on.

Long story short, I don't consider money that I never get as "my money". Taxes are taxes, that money belonged to the government before it even hit my bank account is how I look at it. I don't care what they spend it on because I don't have any authority or power to dictate what they decide to spend it on.
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Posted 1/11/17
...wow. Just wow. Government at work, there. Just vote in the taxes and don't worry your pretty little head about what happens afterward.
Posted 1/11/17 , edited 1/11/17

gornotck wrote:

...wow. Just wow. Government at work, there. Just vote in the taxes and don't worry your pretty little head about what happens afterward.


Well, I learned quickly that there's not much I can do about what the government does. Do we, the citizens, get to vote for every bill that raises our taxes, lowers our taxes, decides a new social program, decides to defund a social program? The answer to all of those is: No, we do not. We can vote for who decides to vote on "our behalf" as a state or the president to veto/approve said bills. At the end of the day, there's nothing the citizen can do to determine what their taxes go towards. Just like when I donate to various homeless shelters or soup kitchens, I don't get to say "Okay, I want you guys to make a five-course meal for that dude over there that looks like he's starving to death with the money I just gave you."

So, I just ignore the whole aspect of taxes and work with what I have. I can't control the country, can't control how people spend their lives, or what Congress decides is the best use of our tax dollars. I can only control what I do, how I do it, and why I do it.
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Posted 1/11/17

gornotck wrote:

Of course, this whole discussion is predicated on a false premise.


Not really.
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Posted 1/11/17
Right to Property is the core of freedom. Your earnings are your own property. If someone else is coming by to take too much of your money before you even get your hands on it, you don't have much freedom.

Now even if the government inspired charity is a good idea, government has a poor return on those dollars spent when compared to private charity. There are good cases for government intervention, but there seems to often be an outright demonization if someone wants to take care of their own before looking outward.

Personally I think Income Taxes should be replaced with higher Consumption taxes. (Note: this wouldn't apply on essential goods like food.) This way immediately most people see a double digit increase in their income and ability to eat well. Consumption taxes would be very high, but they'd be on optional goods. Your iPhones and your Yachts.

This gives people the freedom and choice to choose when to be taxed, and living better at the same time.

Authoritarians hate this because they can't demand and extract money from the dirty commoners who must be taxed to redeem them.

---

Also consider what kind of unfair position this gives the government when they control health, education, and housing through government handouts. Look at the countries in Europe struggling for financial solvency. They're debating between crippling the country's youth with debt, or taking away the elderly's quality of life entitlements. Are all these people going to reform the government when all of them now have something to lose from austerity?

All of these noble programs from the government make the citizens too reliant on the government, resulting in a spiral of Bread and Circuses that will be difficult to maintain.
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Posted 1/11/17

Ryulightorb wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

Let's say you have a fat lazy ass that weights 500lbs, doesn't work because they are on disability due to being fat, and have constant health problems. They have at least $100,000 in health problems a year because they eat nothing but McDonalds and hot pockets.

Then you have yourself. You stay fit, eat good, healthy, and don't even need to go to the doctor.

Why should I pay for that fat lazy ass when they won't even bother taking care of themselves and they are just a drain on the tax payers. My taxes will be raised to pay for someone's lazy life style while I get shafted because I actually care about myself and work.


TTo put it simply you are rewarding bad behavior and punishing good behavior.



Yes there will be the bad apples in the bunch but you shouldn't stop something good just because of those bad apples.
That's just a poor excuse not to pay taxes to help others who are in need imo.


Most of the people "in need$ are there because of their own stupid decisions. I know many people in worse shape than these " people in need" and they get nothing but the tax man is always there waiting to cut their paycheck in half. Meanwhile I watch as some of my fat lazy friends claim welfare because of a fake mental problem and beg for food on Facebook instead of getting a job like they should.
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Posted 1/11/17
You're looking at the crossroads of two mentalities that have been reinforced via political campaigning:

The "bootstraps" mentality that's being held over from the baby boomers. A generation that virtually had everything where one full time bread winner could support an entire family, own a nice house, 2 cars, etc. Who now look down upon the younger generation who are struggling in an economic system where that simply isn't possible anymore.

vs

The "Fuck you, I got mine" mentality. Where a good chunk of Americans have been told repeated by politicians and pundits for decades ( Thank Reagan for this one ) that there are hordes of people out there getting something they don't "deserve". Therefore its better for no one to get anything then it is for a handful of undeserving people to get something. This mentality was originally applied to the poor but has been expanded to include immigrants in current political rhetoric.

That, and you have to remember there are no poor people in America. Only temporarily embarrassed millionaires. -.-



ninjitsuko wrote:
  • Working Hard - Getting Less Pay - In places like Canada, America, and England/UK there are people who are diligently working their asses off for what is seemingly an endless amount of time just to make ends meet. Because of national healthcare and welfare programs, those who work feel that it should be a requirement (to work) in order to qualify for these things because they're jealous of those who don't work and strive without any complications.
  • Exploited Welfare Programs - People who simply "linger" on the welfare programs in all three of these countries are looked down upon. In England, there are many people who simply exploit/manipulate Jobseekers Allowance - in the US, women are having children just to get more money from Social Security.. so on and so on. As long as there are systems, people will exploit them. We just need to figure out a way to minimize the amount of "exploiters".



And that's really what it comes down too. EVERY system has an error ratio. No system is 100% accurate in politics, programs or business. But when it comes to social programs there are those that basically think if we can't have a flawlessly perfect system we should have nothing at all. They would rather fuck over 100 people than have 1 person get an undeserved "freebie".

Yet at the same time the same people accept a margin of error in business. There's always a small % of mistakes, fraud, shoplifting, etc that affects the cost of doing business. But the solution isn't to stop doing business or set the business on fire and walk away. Its to work to minimize that %.

I don't know if you would call it spite or selfishness or what.

Personally, I have been on both sides of this fence. I worked my ass off for years and have little to show for it except crippling mental health issues and physical problems. Now I'm on disability as a result. I live in Canada. I never cursed my income taxes off my paycheque or spat on anyone on unemployment insurance. Because I knew the system they supported and if anything happened that system would help me.

Which it ended up doing. I don't have to pay to see my doctor. I don't have to pay for my medications. I didn't have to pay for tests at the hospital. I didn't have to endanger my life by avoiding going to the ER, twice, because I didn't have to pay for an ER visit. And now that I'm not capable of working I don't have to worry about being homeless. I am certainly not living the high life off the taxpayer's dime but I have a roof over my head and I'm not going to starve to death.

And that is what a modern, civilized society should be. Hence I never bitched about taxes.

I can't even fathom how Americans aren't rioting in the streets over health care. The idea that your entire life could be ruined just because you were injured or came down with something and ended up saddled with thousands in medical bills? That you have to endanger your health by avoiding going to the doctor because you can't afford too? That is completely absurd.










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