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Post Reply North Korea to Obama: Start packing
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Posted 1/18/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
I'd love to debate geopolitics and how Isreal and Turkey are infinitely better allies in the Middle East than Iran. We have differing opinions that much is obvious. In that region the U.S. has diminished influence.


I said nothing about who was the better ally. I said that Bibi and Ergodan are assholes so using their input as a barometer for the world's opinion of America is flawed at best. You brought Iran into this as a "normal" critic. Stop trying to move the goal posts again.



MysticGon wrote:European nations, S. Korea and Japan are still in America's corner. But the pivot to Asia has been met with ruffled feathers by China, pushing them to forge closer ties with Russia. The US has recently gained Iran and Cuba as frienemies. So if you want to start talking about dictators you have two doozies straight away. Not saying things will be better with the next administration but to cause such tension in your final days to screw with your successor is quite frankly a dick move, the significance of such dick moves is not lost on the international community.


The pivot to Asia has been ongoing for 4-5 years. It is hardly a last minute thing and the worry is not Obama but rather what Trump will do in regards to China. He already has China on edge and they by and large view him as a dangerous idiot. Dealing with China requires a delicate hand. Something Trump completely lacks. In fact, Obama directly cautioned Trump not to start a conflict with China.





Obama said, as he sends U.S. Forces to Eastern Europe to face another nuclear state. I'll admit I'm blending Obama's failures before the elections with his spiteful actions after the election. I'm painting the picture of a man who presided over a weakened standing of the country he leads. If you don't like Isreal and don't consider their opinion to be valid that's fine. I'd just have to disagree.

Now as far as what the future holds? I don't know, I can't defend someone who hasn't been sworn in. Maybe Trump might fuck shit up for his successor in his final weeks too. I'll be sure to give him shit too. Because I see trying to pigeonhole your successor with your policies during a lame-duck period is particularly scummy.
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Posted 1/18/17 , edited 1/18/17

MysticGon wrote:
Obama said, as he sends U.S. Forces to Eastern Europe to face another nuclear state. I'll admit I'm blending Obama's failures before the elections with his spiteful actions after the election. I'm painting the picture of a man who presided over a weakened standing of the country he leads. If you don't like Isreal and don't consider their opinion to be valid that's fine. I'd just have to disagree.


Another nuclear state that invaded a neighbour and interfered with the foundation of your democracy. As for weakened standing, that has already been repeatedly proven false. Obama is well liked globally and has done a fantastic job of repairing the US's standing and diplomatic relations in the wake of the Bush administration.

As for Israel, its not Israel I don't like its Bibi. He's a dick and a petulant little butthole. The global community has been signaling to him and Israel that the whole settlement building thing is Not Okay(tm) for quite some time. Obama has actually been a major supporting of Israel despite Bibi's assholeness. More so than his predecessors. So Bibi having a shit fit that the US did not veto one resolution is pretty idiotic. As is everyone pretending like this is some unprecedented dickery by Obama.

Bush allowed 6 such UN resolutions to go through without a veto. But Obama letting one go by and handing Israel its largest military aid package in history is somehow "spiteful"?



MysticGon wrote:
Now as far as what the future holds? I don't know, I can't defend someone who hasn't been sworn in. Maybe Trump might fuck shit up for his successor in his final weeks too. I'll be sure to give him shit too. Because I see trying to pigeonhole your successor with your policies during a lame-duck period is particularly scummy.


The US can't just upend and reverse course on all of its long term policies every 4-8 years. It'd be chaos. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a president in modern history who did not pass along policy direction to his successor. Obama certainly inherited some from Bush. In Obama's case its particularly pertinent as his successor has publicly vowed to literally destroy everything he has done in the previous 8 years. While likewise threatening some US policies that have been ongoing for decades.

So why are you on Obama's case here instead of Trump's?





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Posted 1/18/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
Obama said, as he sends U.S. Forces to Eastern Europe to face another nuclear state. I'll admit I'm blending Obama's failures before the elections with his spiteful actions after the election. I'm painting the picture of a man who presided over a weakened standing of the country he leads. If you don't like Isreal and don't consider their opinion to be valid that's fine. I'd just have to disagree.


Another nuclear state that invaded a neighbour and interfered with the foundation of your democracy. As for weakened standing, that has already been repeatedly proven false. Obama is well liked globally and has done a fantastic job of repairing the US's standing and diplomatic relations in the wake of the Bush administration.

As for Israel, its not Israel I don't like its Bibi. He's a dick and a petulant little butthole. The global community has been signaling to him and Israel that the whole settlement building thing is Not Okay(tm) for quite some time. Obama has actually been a major supporting of Israel despite Bibi's assholeness. More so than his predecessors. So Bibi having a shit fit that the US did not veto one resolution is pretty idiotic. As is everyone pretending like this is some unprecedented dickery by Obama.

Bush allowed 6 such UN resolutions to go through without a veto. But Obama letting one go by and handing Israel its largest military aid package in history is somehow "spiteful"?



MysticGon wrote:
Now as far as what the future holds? I don't know, I can't defend someone who hasn't been sworn in. Maybe Trump might fuck shit up for his successor in his final weeks too. I'll be sure to give him shit too. Because I see trying to pigeonhole your successor with your policies during a lame-duck period is particularly scummy.


The US can't just upend and reverse course on all of its long term policies every 4-8 years. It'd be chaos. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a president in modern history who did not pass along policy direction to his successor. Obama certainly inherited some from Bush. In Obama's case its particularly pertinent as his successor has publicly vowed to literally destroy everything he has done in the previous 8 years. While likewise threatening some US policies that have been ongoing for decades.

So why are you on Obama's case here instead of Trump's?







He's not president and doesn't have a successor to fuck over yet. You can change up the whole playbook militarily as the commander-in-chief.

When you say it's hard to change course that's exactly what Obama is betting on when it comes to the military build up in Eastern Europe and the UN resolution on Isreal, which he knows runs counter to what the incoming administration wants. That is indeed spiteful.

I'm not going to knock the man for naming national parks, making nature preserves, banning oil drilling, commuting or pardon people in trouble or even striking up a few last executive orders to try and force your values onto your citizens. He's the president for 8 full years. That said, I thunk he needs to ease up on the pigeonholing. If Obama is doing this now what would stop Trump from doing his own version of these "fuck you" moves in 4 to 8 years?
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Posted 1/18/17

MysticGon wrote:


runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
I'd love to debate geopolitics and how Isreal and Turkey are infinitely better allies in the Middle East than Iran. We have differing opinions that much is obvious. In that region the U.S. has diminished influence.


I said nothing about who was the better ally. I said that Bibi and Ergodan are assholes so using their input as a barometer for the world's opinion of America is flawed at best. You brought Iran into this as a "normal" critic. Stop trying to move the goal posts again.



MysticGon wrote:European nations, S. Korea and Japan are still in America's corner. But the pivot to Asia has been met with ruffled feathers by China, pushing them to forge closer ties with Russia. The US has recently gained Iran and Cuba as frienemies. So if you want to start talking about dictators you have two doozies straight away. Not saying things will be better with the next administration but to cause such tension in your final days to screw with your successor is quite frankly a dick move, the significance of such dick moves is not lost on the international community.


The pivot to Asia has been ongoing for 4-5 years. It is hardly a last minute thing and the worry is not Obama but rather what Trump will do in regards to China. He already has China on edge and they by and large view him as a dangerous idiot. Dealing with China requires a delicate hand. Something Trump completely lacks. In fact, Obama directly cautioned Trump not to start a conflict with China.





Obama said, as he sends U.S. Forces to Eastern Europe to face another nuclear state. I'll admit I'm blending Obama's failures before the elections with his spiteful actions after the election. I'm painting the picture of a man who presided over a weakened standing of the country he leads. If you don't like Isreal and don't consider their opinion to be valid that's fine. I'd just have to disagree.

Now as far as what the future holds? I don't know, I can't defend someone who hasn't been sworn in. Maybe Trump might fuck shit up for his successor in his final weeks too. I'll be sure to give him shit too. Because I see trying to pigeonhole your successor with your policies during a lame-duck period is particularly scummy.

Wow this is the first time the US has sent troops to fellow NATO countries. Has someone alerted Alex Jones yet?

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Posted 1/18/17

MysticGon wrote:
When you say it's hard to change course that's exactly what Obama is betting on when it comes to the military build up in Eastern Europe and the UN resolution on Isreal, which he knows runs counter to what the incoming administration wants. That is indeed spiteful.


Again, the UN resolution on Israel is nothing new. Every president has let resolutions against Israel pass. Reagan allowed 21 of them to go by with no veto. There's nothing to change course on. In fact Obama, historically, is the president who allowed the *least* amount of resolutions against Israel to go by without a veto at just 1. The US has supported a two state solution for years across multiple administrations stretching back to 1967.

The UN also doesn't function according to the US's schedule. The security council did not convene at Obama's beck and call just so he could be "spiteful" towards the next administration.

The military build up in Eastern Europe stems from a DoD initiative from 2014 in the wake of Russia' invasion of Crimea. NATO's increased multinational deployment was finalized in July. Neither of these are last minute spiteful pigeonholes. They're long standing policies and plans stemming from Russia's increased geographical fuckery.

Furthermore, its hard to say if it runs counter to the incoming administration. Trump has been critical of NATO but also praised it. He slobbers on Putin's knob but his pick for UN ambassador is hard line anti-Russia. He wants to toss out the Iran nuclear deal but his own security cabinet picks testified they would advise him to enforce it.

The administration is all over the map and contradicting itself.




MysticGon wrote:
what would stop Trump from doing his own version of these "fuck you" moves in 4 to 8 years?


If Trump actually makes it to the end of his administration I fully expect him to try and pass an executive order saying no one can repeal his executive orders. Or pass an executive order declaring himself emperor. -.-



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Posted 1/18/17

uncletim wrote:
Wow this is the first time the US has sent troops to fellow NATO countries. Has someone alerted Alex Jones yet?


Depends, are the frogs gay?
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Posted 1/18/17


I suppose the easy answer would be timing. Like how you might argue James Comey's decision to alert Congress of the Clinton investigation. You can argue that Obama isn't vindictive but I'll just have to disagree seeing as we fall on different ends of the scale when it comes to how we view him.

A nice article that sums up my thoughts on the Russia situation. And it's public knowledge Obama and Netanyahu were never best of friends.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2017/01/10/Troop-movements-Curious-timing-for-U-S-and-NATO-border-buildup-nbsp/stories/201701100014#
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Posted 1/18/17 , edited 1/18/17

MysticGon wrote:
I suppose the easy answer would be timing. Like how you might argue James Comey's decision to alert Congress of the Clinton investigation. You can argue that Obama isn't vindictive but I'll just have to disagree seeing as we fall on different ends of the scale when it comes to how we view him.


You've yet to demonstrate any last minute vindictiveness on Obama's part.



MysticGon wrote:
A nice article that sums up my thoughts on the Russia situation. And it's public knowledge Obama and Netanyahu were never best of friends.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2017/01/10/Troop-movements-Curious-timing-for-U-S-and-NATO-border-buildup-nbsp/stories/201701100014#


Bibi is an asshole, he's not exactly the best of friends with anyone. Despite that though, one more time, Obama has been more supportive of Israel that his predecessors. He has contributed more military aid to Israel that any prior president and he has allowed less UN resolutions to go through against Israel than any prior president. Your argument here is simply not supported by facts.

As for your article, Operation Atlantic Resolve began in the Spring of 2015. Which, again, this is all fallout from 2014 and part of Obama and the DoD's initiative to reassure NATO allies in the wake of Crimea. Again, troop movements were finalized in July.

And finally, the troop deployment and exercises in Poland in particular: Russia has been conducting military exercises along Poland's border for some time now. They have been building up military power next to Poland since 2008. Started moving in missile platforms in 2012 and deployed further missile platforms in Oct and Nov. The Baltic States have been shitting themselves since Crimea and have been looking to the US and NATO for help.

Poland in particular is estatic: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/14/waited-for-decades-polish-govt-welcomes-us-troops.html

There is so much more going on here and its been going on for quite some time. That you view it through the lens of Obama being "spiteful" instead of the US protecting and reassuring its allies in the face of aggression from its foremost geopolitical foe, a foe which just launched a coordinated effort to sway your election, is frankly rather bizarre.




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Posted 1/19/17
Can't we just admit North Korea hates everyone?
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Posted 1/19/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:
Can't we just admit North Korea hates everyone?


Ultimately, Best Korea just wants Sempai to notice it.
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I'm not too sure about the morality of remaining on good terms with the one country that's basically a giant concentration camp in the first place.
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Posted 1/19/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
I suppose the easy answer would be timing. Like how you might argue James Comey's decision to alert Congress of the Clinton investigation. You can argue that Obama isn't vindictive but I'll just have to disagree seeing as we fall on different ends of the scale when it comes to how we view him.


You've yet to demonstrate any last minute vindictiveness on Obama's part.



MysticGon wrote:
A nice article that sums up my thoughts on the Russia situation. And it's public knowledge Obama and Netanyahu were never best of friends.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2017/01/10/Troop-movements-Curious-timing-for-U-S-and-NATO-border-buildup-nbsp/stories/201701100014#


Bibi is an asshole, he's not exactly the best of friends with anyone. Despite that though, one more time, Obama has been more supportive of Israel that his predecessors. He has contributed more military aid to Israel that any prior president and he has allowed less UN resolutions to go through against Israel than any prior president. Your argument here is simply not supported by facts.

As for your article, Operation Atlantic Resolve began in the Spring of 2015. Which, again, this is all fallout from 2014 and part of Obama and the DoD's initiative to reassure NATO allies in the wake of Crimea. Again, troop movements were finalized in July.

And finally, the troop deployment and exercises in Poland in particular: Russia has been conducting military exercises along Poland's border for some time now. They have been building up military power next to Poland since 2008. Started moving in missile platforms in 2012 and deployed further missile platforms in Oct and Nov. The Baltic States have been shitting themselves since Crimea and have been looking to the US and NATO for help.

Poland in particular is estatic: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/14/waited-for-decades-polish-govt-welcomes-us-troops.html

There is so much more going on here and its been going on for quite some time. That you view it through the lens of Obama being "spiteful" instead of the US protecting and reassuring its allies in the face of aggression from its foremost geopolitical foe, a foe which just launched a coordinated effort to sway your election, is frankly rather bizarre.






I think optics matter and with the ability to cancel exercises the build up in conjunction with sanctions and the timing of it all is leading to some dangerous dick waving as you put it in another thread.

Cambodia and the Philippines canceling or reducing drills with the US.

http://macaudailytimes.com.mo/cambodia-military-exercise-us-canceled.html

http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/no-phiblex-in-2017

The U.S. has cancelled military exercises in the past based on treatment of gays.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0EU26N20140619

These are military operations or drills and thus the buck stops with the commander-in-chief.

With Isreal the timing to abstain is quite frankly suspect and even news outlets you might find friendly see the action for what it was.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/world/middleeast/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-barack-obama.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-obama-administration-fires-a-dangerous-parting-shot/2016/12/23/f37f03b2-c94d-11e6-8bee-54e800ef2a63_story.html?utm_term=.ba09e316844c

You can be coy about it all you like but the same way you can question my concern about confronting Russia I would pose the same question for your defense of Obama.
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Mate.

Nobody cares what North Korea thinks of a country. Nobody is going to be convinced of something based on Kim Jong Un's opinion. Just stop.
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Posted 1/19/17

octorockandroll wrote:



Mate.

Nobody cares what North Korea thinks of a country. Nobody is going to be convinced of something based on Kim Jong Un's opinion. Just stop.


Didn't realize I was talking about North Korea just then...
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Posted 1/19/17

MysticGon wrote:
I think optics matter and with the ability to cancel exercises the build up in conjunction with sanctions and the timing of it all is leading to some dangerous dick waving as you put it in another thread.

Cambodia and the Philippines canceling or reducing drills with the US.

http://macaudailytimes.com.mo/cambodia-military-exercise-us-canceled.html

http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/no-phiblex-in-2017

The U.S. has cancelled military exercises in the past based on treatment of gays.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0EU26N20140619

These are military operations or drills and thus the buck stops with the commander-in-chief.


There's a pretty big difference between a joint military exercise and providing support for NATO allies in the face of a regional aggressor. One would just finished attacking your political system at that.

That you're even trying to make this comparison is pretty suspect.



MysticGon wrote:With Isreal the timing to abstain is quite frankly suspect and even news outlets you might find friendly see the action for what it was.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/world/middleeast/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-barack-obama.html


You really should read this one yourself. Its a solid write up of the entire history of the situation.




MysticGon wrote:
You can be coy about it all you like but the same way you can question my concern about confronting Russia I would pose the same question for your defense of Obama.


What alternative would you propose for dealing with Russia and protecting your allies then?

I am defending Obama because your argument thus far in this thread has been:

#1: Using North Korea as the barometer for what the world thinks of America
#2: Using a hodgepodge of unattributed quotes, some of which you misrepresented, others from countries whose opinion isn't worth much.
#3: Claiming that Obama is making last minute decisions out of spite towards the incoming administration instead of as the end result of long standing policies and situations.

All 3 of these are demonstrably false.




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