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Post Reply Capitalist Fantasy Logic
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 6/9/17

Hydroglyph wrote:

I do not really understand your argument. Could you please provide concrete examples such as anime scenes, qoutes or history? Also as a social science major I disagree with some of your points.
- All societies have their culture/beliefs show up in the media they create. This is natural.
- Are you arguing for or against Capitalism? I cannot tell from your rant
- Anime is produced in a capitalist "make a cartoon in order to earn money" world so why wouldn't it have capitalist slants? This is how the creators earn money to survive
- "expectation to help each other out without incentive" is the OPPOSITE of Capitalism. It is more communist or socialist
- "ignorance" is not pro or con Capitalist. It really does not go towards anything unless you explain further

...I think you are thinking too deeply about Capitalist versus Leftist mind games that may or may not exist.
- Have you seen the movie "Hail, Ceasar!" ? You may find it interesting


After reading your excellent post, I realized that the internet finally made an asshole out of me. I suppose I should second your questioning of the OP for clarification.

The OP does seem to be clearly arguing against capitalism, but beyond that I have issues figuring things out.


sinoakayumi wrote:

I should explain about the Capitalist fantasy logic from kid's cartoon and anime.


Unfortunately, the rest of your paragraph does little to explain anything. You don't provide us with a good sense of what you mean by "Capitalist fantasy logic," and you don't provide any references that are specific enough to show us anything.

Your second and third paragraphs are more of the same, and contain some apparent contradictions and falsehoods, as Hydroglyph pointed out with the "expectation to help each other out without incentive" bit. Please rewrite and/or expand on your OP.
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 1/21/17
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 1/21/17

foraslan wrote:

After reading your excellent post, I realized that the internet finally made an asshole out of me.


To be fair, I see every indication that efforts to get clear information from the OP will be like squeezing blood from a stone. But maybe that makes me an asshole too.
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 6/9/17

Hydroglyph wrote:

I do not really understand your argument. Could you please provide concrete examples such as anime scenes, qoutes or history? Also as a social science major I disagree with some of your points.
- All societies have their culture/beliefs show up in the media they create. This is natural.
- Are you arguing for or against Capitalism? I cannot tell from your rant
- Anime is produced in a capitalist "make a cartoon in order to earn money" world so why wouldn't it have capitalist slants? This is how the creators earn money to survive
- "expectation to help each other out without incentive" is the OPPOSITE of Capitalism. It is more communist or socialist
- "ignorance" is not pro or con Capitalist. It really does not go towards anything unless you explain further

...I think you are thinking too deeply about Capitalist versus Leftist mind games that may or may not exist.
- Have you seen the movie "Hail, Ceasar!" ? You may find it interesting


On the first point, I am not discussing about all media.
On second point, you demand the 'us versus them mentality' and claim that something is a rant without any logical explanation.
On the third point, you contradict your first point when you claim that anime can only be made by the Capitalists and that it has to reflect the Capitalist perspective.
On the fourth point, "expectation to help each other out without incentive" is enforced by the invisible hand which reward people who help others without reason. An example would be the protagonist in Mahou Sensou in his interaction with his jealous brother.
On the fifth point, the pro-Capitalist Western comedy cartoons enforce ignorance when they show that the invisible hand protect people with the innocent child mindset. That is why Homura is stigmatized in Magica Madoka.

On your final conclusion, you contradict your second point when you complain about the "Capitalist versus Leftist".


MonoDreams wrote:

Can we please leave anime out of politics?


Using 'politics' as a magic word to dismiss anything that threaten the Capitalist politics; I am getting bored of this trick.
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 1/21/17
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 6/9/17

sinoakayumi wrote:


MonoDreams wrote:

Can we please leave anime out of politics?


Using 'politics' as a magic word to dismiss anything that threaten the Capitalist politics; I am getting bored of this trick.


You twisted my words, anime has nothing to do with politics, just leave it out of your ramblings is all I meant.
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 1/21/17
1) okay...so you are only discussing anime?
2) I was assuming an 'us versus them' mentality was implicit in your original post. Is this not the case? Also, I personally consider any long passionate post about one topic to be a "rant". That is my personal opinion. I am not saying that you are not being logical...I just do not understand your original post's argument clearly
3) I did not say anime can ONLY be made by Capitalists. Japan is a Capistalist society and thus IS made by Capitalists (unless there are a few socialists and communist anime staff that I am unaware of). Theoretically anime can be made by anyone of any belief...I just have not personally seen this.
4) How does the invisible hand reward people for helping without incentive?I understand the invisible hand to be the demand and supply economics model...does the economy intervene? I have not seen Mahou Sensou. Do you have another example?
5) I have not seen Magica Madoka or Madoka Magica either so I do not understand your point.
6) My second point from my previous post was a question...I am not trying to argue against my own question because I consider a question to not be a statement

As someone who has a job I have seen the invisible hand crush families, destroy relationships and also bring people great satisfaction in life etc It is true that this doesn't show up in anime but most entertainment does not focus on the economy or its influence on people (with the exceptions being maybe Spice and Wolf, Maoyu or Grimar of Fantasy and Ash). Most cartoons just do not go that deep.
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Posted 1/20/17 , edited 1/21/17
By the way, I'm glad that you are including concrete examples in your argument. Thanks. Sorry I haven't seen any of those shows
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Posted 1/21/17 , edited 6/9/17
Capitalism does have its problems, but sadly it is probably the most efficient system of equitably distributing goods and services our technology allows at the moment. Even a communist system slides into capitalist or aristocratic economic system over time. Unless you have a 'system' like North Korea where there isn't a functioning economy.

See, under any system some people will one way or another win. Whether by skills, effort, or innovation some people will outperform their peers. Any system will naturally reward these people for their efforts. People with unique skills will want to be retained and encouraged, lest they migrate to a competitor or lose productivity.

Even under a functionally dead economy like in North Korea their nuclear scientists and engineers are accorded higher station than the general populace. Because these skills are limited and it is in the best interests of their leaders to propagate these skills.

Under what could be called an aristocratic system that is arising in China and has long been established in many other states, the winners are determined less by their skills than by their connections. The government picks those that will be rewarded regardless of skill or merit. The result is a rising class of government sanctioned oligarchs.

In a meritocratic capitalist system it is less dependent on connections and influence and more on innovation and skill thus leveling the playing field and allowing anyone with the talent to achieve these rewards.

I do accede that the majority would naturally not directly benefit, but as we have seen with the success of meritocratic capitalist systems in the Western World the innovation provided by these people have benefitted society through technical advancements, scientific progress, and increasing economic productivity allowing the funding of generous social services and public welfare for the less advantaged masses. Thus, while meritocratic capitalism is an imperfect system, it is far superior to alternative systems.
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Posted 1/21/17


I am so confused right now.... I've seen quite a few of those shows and movies that the OP mentioned in their first post, yet I don't see anything of what they're talking about in them. I guess that maybe they perceive them that way but not everyone does.
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Posted 1/21/17 , edited 6/9/17

MonoDreams wrote:


sinoakayumi wrote:


MonoDreams wrote:

Can we please leave anime out of politics?


Using 'politics' as a magic word to dismiss anything that threaten the Capitalist politics; I am getting bored of this trick.


You twisted my words, anime has nothing to do with politics, just leave it out of your ramblings is all I meant.


You are the one who is twisting the 'politics' word around: you claim that something is 'politics' when it do not agree with your opinions.


Ravenstein wrote:

Capitalism does have its problems, but sadly it is probably the most efficient system of equitably distributing goods and services our technology allows at the moment. Even a communist system slides into capitalist or aristocratic economic system over time. Unless you have a 'system' like North Korea where there isn't a functioning economy.

See, under any system some people will one way or another win. Whether by skills, effort, or innovation some people will outperform their peers. Any system will naturally reward these people for their efforts. People with unique skills will want to be retained and encouraged, lest they migrate to a competitor or lose productivity.

Even under a functionally dead economy like in North Korea their nuclear scientists and engineers are accorded higher station than the general populace. Because these skills are limited and it is in the best interests of their leaders to propagate these skills.

Under what could be called an aristocratic system that is arising in China and has long been established in many other states, the winners are determined less by their skills than by their connections. The government picks those that will be rewarded regardless of skill or merit. The result is a rising class of government sanctioned oligarchs.

In a meritocratic capitalist system it is less dependent on connections and influence and more on innovation and skill thus leveling the playing field and allowing anyone with the talent to achieve these rewards.

I do accede that the majority would naturally not directly benefit, but as we have seen with the success of meritocratic capitalist systems in the Western World the innovation provided by these people have benefitted society through technical advancements, scientific progress, and increasing economic productivity allowing the funding of generous social services and public welfare for the less advantaged masses. Thus, while meritocratic capitalism is an imperfect system, it is far superior to alternative systems.


You are using the Capitalist logic that economic policy determine economic condition; the Communism arise in nations with economic hardship and instability instead of the other way around.
The Communist system do not naturally slide into Capitalism nor aristocratic economic system. Many current Communist nations are shifting into a moderate economic position because they gain enough economic resource and stability to sustain some Capitalist elements. The 'aristocratic' system is not a byproduct of Communism but a need to maintain stability and manage limited resource. Your 'aristocratic' label is misleading since it does not explain the willingness of the second generation Soviet to shift into democracy nor the rapid economic change by the new generation of Communist Chinese leaders.

The 'aristocratic' system that you are describing in China is a result of Capitalism which allow shady backdoor deal by government officers with private companies; by allowing more government activities to be conducted outside of public scrutiny, the rule of law and check of power had weakened within the government.
You claim that the meritocratic Capitalist system provide the current social benefit to the Western World but the Western prosperity was barely attributed to Capitalism; Democracy and the rule of law was often attributed to current Western prosperity instead of Capitalism.
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Posted 1/21/17 , edited 1/21/17
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communism removes motivation for progress why gain advanced skills and such when you will be making the exact same amount as someone with less skill or importance then your skill set. plus its should be pretty obvious that communism is a failed system and the only people who want it are the stupid or the manipulative and the only equality really that communism provides is to be equal oppressed unless your in the ruling/upper class since without fail every communist country is at least a dictatorship which further shows its not a good system.
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Posted 1/21/17 , edited 1/21/17
"Capitalistic Representative Democracy, the worse form of government, except for all the others that have been tried or proposed."
(with respect to W. Churchill's Quote)
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Posted 1/21/17 , edited 6/9/17

Hydroglyph wrote:

1) okay...so you are only discussing anime?
2) I was assuming an 'us versus them' mentality was implicit in your original post. Is this not the case? Also, I personally consider any long passionate post about one topic to be a "rant". That is my personal opinion. I am not saying that you are not being logical...I just do not understand your original post's argument clearly
3) I did not say anime can ONLY be made by Capitalists. Japan is a Capistalist society and thus IS made by Capitalists (unless there are a few socialists and communist anime staff that I am unaware of). Theoretically anime can be made by anyone of any belief...I just have not personally seen this.
4) How does the invisible hand reward people for helping without incentive?I understand the invisible hand to be the demand and supply economics model...does the economy intervene? I have not seen Mahou Sensou. Do you have another example?
5) I have not seen Magica Madoka or Madoka Magica either so I do not understand your point.
6) My second point from my previous post was a question...I am not trying to argue against my own question because I consider a question to not be a statement

As someone who has a job I have seen the invisible hand crush families, destroy relationships and also bring people great satisfaction in life etc It is true that this doesn't show up in anime but most entertainment does not focus on the economy or its influence on people (with the exceptions being maybe Spice and Wolf, Maoyu or Grimar of Fantasy and Ash). Most cartoons just do not go that deep.



Hydroglyph wrote:

By the way, I'm glad that you are including concrete examples in your argument. Thanks. Sorry I haven't seen any of those shows


Thank you for clarifying your points. I should also clarify my point on 4): I am referring to the just world idea where good characters will face good fate while bad characters will face bad fate; this just world idea can be interpreted as an act by the invisible hand. It can convince people to follow the idea of "helping others without incentive" while secretly expecting some incentive.


dragonlord1234 wrote:

communism removes motivation for progress why gain advanced skills and such when you will be making the exact same amount as someone with less skill or importance then your skill set. plus its should be pretty obvious that communism is a failed system and the only people who want it are the stupid or the manipulative and the only equality really that communism provides is to be equal oppressed unless your in the ruling/upper class since without fail every communist country is at least a dictatorship which further shows its not a good system.


You are referring to the fake Marxism that the Capitalists create through their extensive hacking and impersonation. Communism allow equal opportunity; not equal reward. I explain some of this in the "Collectivism in Politicians of Democracy' topic on general discussion.
You should also stop judging people without consideration their circumstances especially when the Communists is fixing nations that the Capitalists mess up.


Jamming777 wrote:

"Capitalistic Representative Democracy, the worse form of government, except for all the others that have been tried or proposed."
(with respect to W. Churchill's Quote)


This phrase assume that policies determine social condition instead of the other way around.
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