First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next  Last
Post Reply Capitalist Fantasy Logic
6584 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 1/21/17 , edited 6/9/17

sinoakayumi wrote:




dragonlord1234 wrote:

communism removes motivation for progress why gain advanced skills and such when you will be making the exact same amount as someone with less skill or importance then your skill set. plus its should be pretty obvious that communism is a failed system and the only people who want it are the stupid or the manipulative and the only equality really that communism provides is to be equal oppressed unless your in the ruling/upper class since without fail every communist country is at least a dictatorship which further shows its not a good system.


You are referring to the fake Marxism that the Capitalists create through their extensive hacking and impersonation. Communism allow equal opportunity; not equal reward. I explain some of this in the "Collectivism in Politicians of Democracy' topic on general discussion.
You should also stop judging people without consideration their circumstances especially when the Communists is fixing nations that the Capitalists mess up.



that sounds like quite the conspiracy theory and unwilling to face the truth.and you going on about that stuff i can't help but compare you to that other conspiracy theorist lala.and sure capitalist countries have done bad things but communists are just as bad if not worse. and like i said history and facts have shown that communism is another failed way to run society and is just another excuse to form dictatorships. on paper some aspect may look nice but they don't work in the real world.
345 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / CGS DIVISION 03
Offline
Posted 1/21/17

sinoakayumi wrote:

You are using the Capitalist logic that economic policy determine economic condition; the Communism arise in nations with economic hardship and instability instead of the other way around.
The Communist system do not naturally slide into Capitalism nor aristocratic economic system. Many current Communist nations are shifting into a moderate economic position because they gain enough economic resource and stability to sustain some Capitalist elements. The 'aristocratic' system is not a byproduct of Communism but a need to maintain stability and manage limited resource. Your 'aristocratic' label is misleading since it does not explain the willingness of the second generation Soviet to shift into democracy nor the rapid economic change by the new generation of Communist Chinese leaders.

The 'aristocratic' system that you are describing in China is a result of Capitalism which allow shady backdoor deal by government officers with private companies; by allowing more government activities to be conducted outside of public scrutiny, the rule of law and check of power had weakened within the government.
You claim that the meritocratic Capitalist system provide the current social benefit to the Western World but the Western prosperity was barely attributed to Capitalism; Democracy and the rule of law was often attributed to current Western prosperity instead of Capitalism.


Could you go into more detail by what you mean by "Capitalist Logic"? You gave a short definition of it and I am curious to know what this term means. I did google it but everything that came up was completely against you're point (two examples):
https://wellsharp.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/understanding-the-logic-of-capitalism-efficiency-innovation-and-inequality/
http://www.culturaldiplomacy.org/academy/content/pdf/participant-papers/2012-02-unccd/On_the_Definition_of_Capitalism_-_Prof_Ronald_Edsforth.pdf

Also, most communist systems employ some capitalistic practices due to the fact that capitalism is the basis for the western economy, and they can not compete with us, thus sustain themselves, if they do not employ these practices. See, if they do not compete with us (the western world) for resources, then they would not gain the resources because the western world wold have them instead. So you are correct it isn't natural, but then again, nothing about economics is natural as economics is a human construct. What makes capitalism good is that shares some of the same laws with nature, the most important being "Natural selection through competition".

Another thing, could you clarify what prosperity? I assumed economic prosperity, but then again, you could mean social or cultural. If you do mean economic prosperity, then you are wrong. The economic prosperity that was achieved in the west was due to capitalism. Remember the two industrial revolutions? The industrial revolutions are the reason why the west achieved economic prosperity and they would not have taken place in a communist or socialist society. This is due to the fact that the revolutions were started by people who wanted to make money and worked hard to gain that money.

If you want a deeper understanding of capitalism, you should try reading Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". It is fiction, and it won't give you the history and such, but what it will do is explain and apply the concept of capitalism :/
Ejanss 
16505 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 1/21/17 , edited 1/21/17

slendercookieman wrote:Could you go into more detail by what you mean by "Capitalist Logic"? You gave a short definition of it and I am curious to know what this term means. I did google it but everything that came up was completely against you're point (two examples):


I liked the comments on the first page better, when we thought the OP was a Chinese nut.
345 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / CGS DIVISION 03
Offline
Posted 1/21/17

Ejanss wrote:


slendercookieman wrote:Could you go into more detail by what you mean by "Capitalist Logic"? You gave a short definition of it and I am curious to know what this term means. I did google it but everything that came up was completely against you're point (two examples):


I liked the comments on the first page better, when we thought the OP was a Chinese nut.


Oh, don't get me wrong, I think the they are, too. Just curious what they were talking about because I've never heard of that term before.
4176 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / F / Praries of Canada
Offline
Posted 1/21/17

I am referring to the just world idea where good characters will face good fate while bad characters will face bad fate; this just world idea can be interpreted as an act by the invisible hand. It can convince people to follow the idea of "helping others without incentive" while secretly expecting some incentive.


I did not realize that the invisible hand was a moral agent. I thought the invisible hand was a neutral economic force that balances supply and demand regardless of whether people are good or bad. A good person with too much supply in a low demand market would be just as deeply in trouble as a bad person with too much supply in a low demand market. I would consider the just world idea to be tied to "fate" or religion rather then the economy or the invisible hand. The last part about people helping without incentive secretly for incentive makes sense. People generally prefer reciprocal relationships and the economy can enforce that even if they are helping "for free".


This phrase assume that policies determine social condition instead of the other way around.
. Policies and social conditions are interconnected. Sometimes people will make policies in reaction to their social circumstances and sometimes policies create social circumstance. They influence each other.

*qoutes from sinoakayumi. I have not figured out how to qoute properly on forums yet.
4176 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / F / Praries of Canada
Offline
Posted 1/21/17
You raise a good point. I've been assuming the definition of Capitalist logic as economic competition and materialism but I may have interpreted it wrongly especially since just world theory got brought into the discussion recently.
4176 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / F / Praries of Canada
Offline
Posted 1/21/17 , edited 1/21/17
<Goes to look up 'the invisible hand' and 'Adam Smith" in a generic economics book> Okay. The invisible hand is a bit different from what I thought it was. Basically if everyone works to help themselves in a "fair" economy then society will benefit e.g. a cake maker works to make money for themselves but then other people have cake available to buy assuming everyone agrees on a fair price.

The more I re-read the OP the more sense it makes. I do disagree with some of the points. I really do not understand or agree with the last paragraph. "Capitalist fantasy logic" does not seem like something that can actually make Socialists money if they 'own' it unless it is a niche genre or propaganda tool...not that I think such an idea can actually be "owned" at this point except in an academic source sense.

Either way this is making my brain hurt and I do not wish to spend time researching theories or looking for logic problems. I enjoy this anime site to watch anime on. I'm leaving this conversation. It was interesting to discuss economics etc with everyone.
1240 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 1/21/17
I should explain what I meant by the Capitalist logic: as a logic, it refer to the beliefs and emphasis that is used to guide people's understanding of events and the working of the world. It is something that is taken for granted because people do not normally think about it unless it is directly mentioned. The Capitalist logic is used to provide a rational interpretation of pro-Capitalist arguments but it is never mentioned directly by the Capitalists. The Capitalist logic is taught implicitly to children from cartoons and schools as part of the society`s culture.
The beliefs include the idea of some sort of karma system that manipulate physical events to benefit or harm people according to their past deeds. This include that idea that a person's property ownership and wealth is determined by their hard work and innovation instead of their connection and property investment. The emphasis here refer to what people think about; example include how a person's success is affect by individual choice instead of the support from wealthy family members.
The Capitalist fantasy logic refer to the Capitalist logic that do not work in reality. The Capitalist logic and the Capitalist fantasy logic are two terms that I coined because I find no alternative terms that can effectively describe this concept; I could use "Capitalist brainwashing" or "Capitalist worldview" to refer to the concept but those terms has too broad of a referent.
8705 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
19 / M / Palm Coast, Florida
Offline
Posted 1/21/17

Ejanss wrote:


slendercookieman wrote:Could you go into more detail by what you mean by "Capitalist Logic"? You gave a short definition of it and I am curious to know what this term means. I did google it but everything that came up was completely against you're point (two examples):


I liked the comments on the first page better, when we thought the OP was a Chinese nut.


I actually think OP is a cheeki breeki
345 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / CGS DIVISION 03
Offline
Posted 1/21/17 , edited 6/9/17

sinoakayumi wrote:

I should explain what I meant by the Capitalist logic: as a logic, it refer to the beliefs and emphasis that is used to guide people's understanding of events and the working of the world. It is something that is taken for granted because people do not normally think about it unless it is directly mentioned. The Capitalist logic is used to provide a rational interpretation of pro-Capitalist arguments but it is never mentioned directly by the Capitalists. The Capitalist logic is taught implicitly to children from cartoons and schools as part of the society`s culture.
The beliefs include the idea of some sort of karma system that manipulate physical events to benefit or harm people according to their past deeds. This include that idea that a person's property ownership and wealth is determined by their hard work and innovation instead of their connection and property investment. The emphasis here refer to what people think about; example include how a person's success is affect by individual choice instead of the support from wealthy family members.
The Capitalist fantasy logic refer to the Capitalist logic that do not work in reality. The Capitalist logic and the Capitalist fantasy logic are two terms that I coined because I find no alternative terms that can effectively describe this concept; I could use "Capitalist brainwashing" or "Capitalist worldview" to refer to the concept but those terms has too broad of a referent.


Oh, I understand now. Basically the "capitalist fantasy logic" is "Capitalist Logic" that doesn't work, and that "Capitalist Logic" is how people within a capitalist society defend their capitalistic ideals.

Now, I understand you're argument. You believe that capitalism is less based on hard work and more upon who knows the most wealthy people. Also, that cartoons and schools are teaching that hard work and individual choice are the basis for capitalism, which is a lie due to the previous statement. I think I am safe to assume that you think these cartoons are intentionally teaching these ideas because cartoons are run by the wealthy.

With this in mind, I think that you underestimate the power of hard work and determination. There are plenty of people within capitalist societies who were dirt poor and, through their own hard work, were able to become wealthy. Not to say that connections won't make you wealthy, but that it is not the way most people become wealthy within capitalism. In fact, most of those considered super wealthy today did not start wealthy. If you look at most of the wealthy people from the industrial revolution to today, most were hard-working individuals who started poor and through their own hard work were able to grow wealthy. For example; Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, John D. Rockefeller, Sam Walton, and Walt Disney :/
17341 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
45 / M / Verginia
Offline
Posted 1/21/17
I have one thing to ask the op. Do you have a job or are you some kid with your hand in mommy and daddy's pocket? Socalisim only works for those who don't work. China and Russia have embraced capotiolisum. China only uses communism as a political mechanism to retain control for the party.
70005 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
29 / M / Oklahoma
Offline
Posted 1/21/17 , edited 1/21/17
All economic models have shortcomings. Capitalism tends to favor those already wealthy by giving more and often better opportunities, but for most it's a flaw worth accepting. Some countries balance this out by increasing social programs from taxes to allow those who apply hard work or hit a rough spot an opportunity to work into a better quality of life. Some of these programs include low cost and comprehensive public education, safety nets that can encourage entrepreneurship, etc. Unfortunately sometimes these don't work - see the working poor where work is not typically rewarded no matter how difficult. Hopefully it's a failure we will find a way of addressing in the future.

There's no perfect single economic model, but by using ideas from other ones countries have been working towards fixing their shortcomings of their own. I can't think of a single western country that is based on pure capitalism.
83698 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
39 / M
Online
Posted 1/22/17 , edited 6/9/17

sinoakayumi wrote:

I should explain what I meant by the Capitalist logic: as a logic, it refer to the beliefs and emphasis that is used to guide people's understanding of events and the working of the world. It is something that is taken for granted because people do not normally think about it unless it is directly mentioned. The Capitalist logic is used to provide a rational interpretation of pro-Capitalist arguments but it is never mentioned directly by the Capitalists. The Capitalist logic is taught implicitly to children from cartoons and schools as part of the society`s culture.
The beliefs include the idea of some sort of karma system that manipulate physical events to benefit or harm people according to their past deeds. This include that idea that a person's property ownership and wealth is determined by their hard work and innovation instead of their connection and property investment. The emphasis here refer to what people think about; example include how a person's success is affect by individual choice instead of the support from wealthy family members.
The Capitalist fantasy logic refer to the Capitalist logic that do not work in reality. The Capitalist logic and the Capitalist fantasy logic are two terms that I coined because I find no alternative terms that can effectively describe this concept; I could use "Capitalist brainwashing" or "Capitalist worldview" to refer to the concept but those terms has too broad of a referent.


In my personal experience, this "Capitalist Fantasy Logic" you speak of isn't fantasy at all. I will likely retire a millionaire, certainly heading that way anyway. But, I don't have wealthy family members nor did I have any of the connections you speak of, just hard work and innovation. My family is mostly fairly poor, actually. Many of them didn't go to college. My parents didn't finish high school. I didn't finish college, only went to three classes before I needed to drop it, because I couldn't afford to do it even part time without going to work full time. Due to hard work and innovation, I was able turn lower paying jobs into growth opportunities and became quite valued at a high paying job. That is not to say that I worked harder than my family that is poor. Rather, I would say they worked much harder. Also, I will not be ultra wealthy. However, I have no desire to be ultra wealthy. If I did desire that, then I'm sure I could have followed a path that would have allowed me to gain that kind of wealth. I have no doubt I could have succeeded, but I wouldn't have been doing what I enjoy and my life would have been hell on they way to that wealth. The only reason that I believe I could have succeeded, or believe that I will succeed in becoming moderately wealthy by retirement, is that I live in a capitalist society.
2120 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
28 / F / The margins
Offline
Posted 1/22/17
I was hoping this would be a thread where we chose fantasy teams of CEOs and hedge fund managers.
2120 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
28 / F / The margins
Offline
Posted 1/22/17

sinoakayumi wrote:

On the fifth point, the pro-Capitalist Western comedy cartoons enforce ignorance when they show that the invisible hand protect people with the innocent child mindset. That is why Homura is stigmatized in Magica Madoka.


Could you explain what you mean when you say that this is why Homura is stigmatized? Do you mean that this is why Mami and Sayaka are suspicious of her, because she doesn't share their perspective of fighting for good?
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.