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Post Reply Capitalist Fantasy Logic
Ejanss 
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

lawdog wrote:



No, it was more perfectly summarized during the Cold War, in Vaughn Meader's "First Family" parody:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtSDzn4qns0
JFK has lunch with his world leaders and orders deli takeout; everyone has their own choice, except for Kruschev, who says "I will just have a bite of everyone else's sandwich."



("Uh, Mr. Chiang-Kai-Shek?"
"I will have club sandwich, thank you."
"Would you like that with mayo?"
"Please not to mention that name!")
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Posted 2/24/17

auroraloose wrote:

I was hoping this would be a thread where we chose fantasy teams of CEOs and hedge fund managers.


I keep seeing this thread and want to say what I said above - and then I realize I already said it.

There is a lot one can say against capitalism. Little of it is what sinoakayumi is talking about.
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17
"Capitalism intensfies"
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

It appears that the forums hate that image...
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/26/17
You know, it seems to me that it's a regular mainstay of anime plots that religion is being used as a ploy to alleviate the agonies of oppression without actually taking any substantial steps to address these agonies' causes and to lure the faithful into doing the bidding of an elusive, but pervasive, ruling class no matter the victim nor how brutal the nature of the act demanded. That's exactly what Marx meant when he criticised religion as an "opiate". Fullmetal Alchemist, The Slayers, Demon King Daimao, Hellsing, you get the picture.

You might also do well to check out Kill la Kill. Not just because it has best girl Nonon Jakuzure (Praise be to the Mother of All Things Nani and Sore), but also because it's an interesting work to examine through a socialist lens. There is an entire episode, an entire episode, dedicated to wholesale condemnation of pursuit of material wealth as either a productive or meaningful exercise. Who are the main antagonists? Fascists, industrialists, and financiers, who are respectively represented as callous and manipulative brutes hungry for power and praise, parasites wantonly leeching the world of its resources and people of their humanity, and dimwitted, selfish pigs devoted only to pointlessly driving numbers up on spreadsheets. The main protagonist is practically a personification of Anarcho Socialism in a skintight, barely there sailor fuku.

Finally, I recommend giving a listen to Dante's speech concerning the concept of equivalent exchange in the 2003 version of Fullmetal Alchemist. It's not really a socialist critique of capitalist social and economic customs and assumptions she's delivering, but it nevertheless does dare to stand up and challenge the Just World hypothesis that underlies them. It really made me appreciate her as a character.

Now, this isn't to say there aren't anime that play capitalist economics and social customs pretty straight. There are examples aplenty. That shouldn't be surprising, either, because like it or not anime is a product of the culture that makes it, and Japan is a capitalist country. During its imperial period Japan made it a priority to adopt and adapt European colonialism, Western technology, and industrial capitalist modes of economics in order to establish and sustain its national sovereignty and influence in the world. That sort of thing is going to have a cultural impact, and that impact has been magnified in postwar Japan thanks to cultural diffusion from the United States. You should be glad that works like Kill la Kill and Fullmetal Alchemist exist. They put forward some pretty interesting critiques of fundamental cultural and economic assumptions in capitalist societies. That is not nothing.
lawdog 
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Posted 2/24/17

auroraloose wrote:


auroraloose wrote:

I was hoping this would be a thread where we chose fantasy teams of CEOs and hedge fund managers.


I keep seeing this thread and want to say what I said above - and then I realize I already said it.

There is a lot one can say against capitalism. Little of it is what sinoakayumi is talking about.


When someone is talking about how successful communism has been in Cuba and Eastern Europe...
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 6/9/17

dougeprofile wrote:

I read the original post and...


sinoakayumi wrote:

Those fantasy logic propose solutions like: ignorance, faithfulness to one’s initial perspective regardless of the circumstances, expectation of everyone to help each other without any incentive, relay on the oppressors in authority to help the oppressed, and work hard for the oppressors.

Those are tendencies typically most championed by liberals and socialists ...and communists. To borrow a line from Inigo Montoya: You keep using these words. I do not think they means what you think they mean.


Really now? Liberals are the ones who champion this? See, I thought liberal typically meant one that had a tendency to at least generally be open-minded about things and generally accepting of people's differences. You know, the opposite of a conservative.
If they're not open-minded and unwilling to at least consider new points of view, then they're not liberals. They're conservatives. Just not stuck as far back in the past as conventional conservatives. Either that or they're just fascists. Either way, not liberals.
That is assuming we're talking about ideological conservatives and liberals, and not people who adhere to specific political parties of course.

But then again, when we ARE talking about people who adhere to specific political parties, both liberals and conservatives are equally as guilty of this.

As for socialists I find they are at about the same level as the average capitalist. Or at least the moderate ones, on both sides.
People who are straight up communists, I am more inclined to agree, but it's still not a defining feature for them. And often I'd say it's a lack of perspective, understanding and impragmatic idealism that is the problem, not closed-mindedness. Unlike ideological conservatives.

And it must be stated that the ones who champion unbound capitalism are just as bad, just on the other side of the spectrum. The horseshoe effect and whatnot.
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Posted 2/24/17

sinoakayumi wrote:

I should make sense of the latest post from January 22, 2016:

1) Capitalism do not always allow 'win-win' opportunities; an individual often benefit at the cost of other individuals.

2) The authority of the property owners is similar to a slave owners in that they prevent an individual from getting any reward for their work; this include the authority to prevent access by an individual to their basic living. Due to this, the property owners can prevent the Capitalist economy from working as it should.

3) The concept of the invisible hand also function in Socialist economy with its rule of law; by the law, an individual's position and ownership can be dictated by their effort and talents.


1.) When you say, "an individual often benefits at the cost of other individuals," well then... that's the point. Some succeed and some fail. Capitalism allows "wins" through a person's capabilities and merit. There's not always going to be a "win-win" and it's unrealistic to think "win-win's" will always happen.

2.) Learn what the invisible hand is, it applies to property owners and there tenets as well. (Side-note Slaves were considered property so bad analogy)

3.) Okay, then why are you bashing it so much?
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Posted 2/25/17

BlueOni wrote:

That is not nothing.


Lol - that's how I talk.

Thanks for reminding me of Kill la Kill; while ultimately I couldn't get over the bad taste it left me, it was still interesting and a lot of fun. I'm now listening to the ending theme, which I liked a lot.
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Posted 2/25/17

auroraloose wrote:


BlueOni wrote:

That is not nothing.


Lol - that's how I talk.

Thanks for reminding me of Kill la Kill; while ultimately I couldn't get over the bad taste it left me, it was still interesting and a lot of fun. I'm now listening to the ending theme, which I liked a lot.


Yeah - still listening to "Gomen ne, Iiko ja Irarenai" on repeat. And still not bored.
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Posted 2/25/17 , edited 2/25/17
Could you summarize that?

Edit: I read 2/3 of that before quitting. When criticizing something, at least state clearly what the heck you're criticizing first. What in the world is this "capitalist fantasy logic" you're speaking of? There's not even a strawman to burn here since I couldn't see as much of anything, even straws.
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Posted 2/25/17

lawdog wrote:


auroraloose wrote:


auroraloose wrote:

I was hoping this would be a thread where we chose fantasy teams of CEOs and hedge fund managers.


I keep seeing this thread and want to say what I said above - and then I realize I already said it.

There is a lot one can say against capitalism. Little of it is what sinoakayumi is talking about.


When someone is talking about how successful communism has been in Cuba and Eastern Europe...


Are you using the Capitalist logic that economic policy determine economic condition? I had already explain it: Communism arise in nations with economic hardship and instability from Capitalism instead of the other way around. Even when the Communist countries begin from a bad economic position, the Capitalist still need to create economic sanction against the Communist countries in contrary to their support for free trade. The Capitalist claim that opposition to free-trade will lead to nuclear war and decrease economic productivity but the Capitalists seem to accept this risk anyway due to their paranormal fear of hard working innovative Communists.
You should know that this Capitalist logic will also blame the 9/11 attack on US lax security during the height of Capitalism which would further indicate that Capitalism is for lazy ignorant people. It will further blame the decreasing support of Capitalism on the Western world to the failure of the Capitalist economy and the fear of hard working innovative Communists to the laziness of the Capitalists.


nanikore2 wrote:

Could you summarize that?

Edit: I read 2/3 of that before quitting. When criticizing something, at least state clearly what the heck you're criticizing first. What in the world is this "capitalist fantasy logic" you're speaking of? There's not even a strawman to burn here since I couldn't see as much of anything, even straws.


I already explain it in my post on January 21, 2017 on this topic but I will provide a simplified summary of my previous post in here: The Capitalist logic refer to the beliefs that guide people's understanding of the world toward a favorable views of Capitalism. The Capitalist fantasy logic refer to the Capitalist logic that do not apply to reality.
Ejanss 
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Posted 2/25/17

sinoakayumi wrote:
I already explain it in my post on January 21, 2017 on this topic but I will provide a simplified summary of my previous post in here: The Capitalist logic refer to the beliefs that guide people's understanding of the world toward a favorable views of Capitalism. The Capitalist fantasy logic refer to the Capitalist logic that do not apply to reality.


Allow us to introduce you to ANOTHER decadent Western capitalist/imperialist custom:
"TL;DR (Too long, didn't read)"

It's why we're not pompous asses, over in this hemisphere.
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Posted 2/25/17 , edited 2/25/17
This is rich. The biggest fantasy of all is seeing a full Socialist society working in the real world. Cause if you think that, you best move to Venezuela, North Korea, Cuba, or the (former) Soviet Union and (former) East Germany to see how well that works out both economically and for individual rights.

Even everyone's "good" examples of Sweden and the like are Capitalist societies in how the overall market works, and when Communist China of all places understands the need for working markets for an economy to both function and grow just shows how well Socialism works. As in it doesn't work very well. Capitalism may have problems, but compared to everything else? Yeah, it works the best.
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Posted 2/25/17
I just want to make sure if I'm reading correctly, the OP prefer's communism and socialism?
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