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Post Reply Australia is just Collateral damage to trump
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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17

PeripheralVisionary

Though if it were, I would get the leather jackets and spike adorned vehicles ready.


What are you talking about? Those are our daily drivers.

Dont you guys know anything about australia :/
Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17
The funny thing about trade deals is that they can be written up at any time. In no way does scrapping the TPP and anything else prevent new trade deals and whatnot from being created. Folks can get off their asses and negotiate something else, instead of solely bitching. Honestly, if respective parties do nothing but whine, they aren't scoring any points in the competency department.

EDIT; One last thing that I'd like to throw into the ring; Australia is collateral damage, from the standpoint of Trump not being the president of any other country besides the USA, and, therefore, the bulk of his attention isn't focused Australia. Unpleasant and offensive, but true. Yes, what the US does impacts the rest of the world, yet, ultimately, it's not wise to expect foreign powers to always aim to cushion the rest of the world. I'm on the fence on how effective the TPP was, and am equally unenthusiastic over it kicking the can. I do, however, scratch my head over countries depending upon the United States as much as they seem to, or, at least, bitch over the US not being involved whenever it suits them (considering the criticisms of the US being too involved). Lord knows that every move a country makes can hardly be to the benefit of everyone when, at the end of the day, one would think that the first concern that any leader makes is the country he's in charge of.

This leads back to my original point; negotiate another trade agreement, maybe even leave out the USA in it, but don't just throw a fit and expect a foreign leader to automatically curtail, or something.
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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17
Well America always has been a world inside the world so I'm not surprised, besides, I'm pretty sure Hilary and Trump were against TPP.
As a Mexican I'm a bit worried about NAFTA, it can only go two ways: Mexico leaves the agreement or they sign an agreement completely against Mexico.
runec 
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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17
The problem with isolationism and protectionism in a globalized world is the rest of the globe will just move on without you. You give up your position at the table and forfeit your input. Other countries will move on and make deals and agreements without you. Which you will have no right to complain about later on.

And with emerging economic powers like China waiting in the wings to take your seat while its still warm you run a very real risk of being of being excluded from major trade deals and what not in the future.

Which is all before you consider that your withdrawal and trade wars will set off global economic shock waves that will erode any remaining good will you had in the first place. No one's going to trust the country that tries to run its geopolitics like a used car lot.
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Posted 1/24/17
Lolsss because america is the only country with protectionist policies.

China devalueing its own currency to be more competitive in export pricing isnt the same thing? Nobody is going to switch from the us dollar as the 'global currency' to the yuan when they cant be sure what the Chinese government is going to do with their currency at any point in time. You say some ridiculous things sometimes.
Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17
Sorry, we'll fix our country, you fix yours. Anyway, I thought I read that Australia leased a port where the USA has a base to the Chinese.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/world/australia/china-darwin-port-landbridge.html?_r=0

You guys trade with your Chinese pals.
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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17

runec wrote:

The problem with isolationism and protectionism in a globalized world is the rest of the globe will just move on without you. You give up your position at the table and forfeit your input. Other countries will move on and make deals and agreements without you. Which you will have no right to complain about later on.

And with emerging economic powers like China waiting in the wings to take your seat while its still warm you run a very real risk of being of being excluded from major trade deals and what not in the future.

Which is all before you consider that your withdrawal and trade wars will set off global economic shock waves that will erode any remaining good will you had in the first place. No one's going to trust the country that tries to run its geopolitics like a used car lot.


True, although a counterargument can be made that the coastal metropolitan, upper middle class moved on without middle America's working class. We outsourced jobs that paid a living wage and replaced them with a plethora of low wage, part time, crap jobs. It's part of the reason why many of us feel like there has been no true economic recovery, while unemployment has decreased the quality of jobs coming back do match those that left. Sure, its indisputable that the economy has grown as a whole over the last few decades, but much of that wealth has gone to the top 15-20% of the population while the rest of us are stuck with stagnant wages and declining prospects and social mobility.

Sure, if we want to grow the economy we are going to need good trade deals: ones that do not make multinational corporations more powerful than nation-states, support increased workers' rights and wages, as well as modernized environmental regulations, especially for developing countries. We also need to adequately fund worker retraining programs, something Congress guts time and time again. I've read we only spend about 1/10 of other OECD nations as a percentage of our GDP on such programs. Also, as long as we don't address currency manipulation any of these deals are meaningless, our trade partners can keep devaluing their currencies making their exports more attractive, while ours less so.

The TPP was a horrible trade deal due to corporate overreach and its failure to address currency manipulation. Hopefully, more transparent and better written 1 on 1 trade deals can yield results that are satisfactory for both traditional neoliberals/free trade cheerleaders and the rest of us who either personally suffered or know people that have suffered from many of the poorly written trade agreements of the past.

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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


MonoDreams wrote:

It's not the end of the Australia...


Though if it were, I would get the leather jackets and spike adorned vehicles ready.


You mean its not all Mad Max in Oz?
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Posted 1/24/17

Jamming777 wrote:


You mean its not all Mad Max in Oz?


Some of us still prefer to ride in kangaroos pouches.
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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17

Bailey86 wrote:


Jamming777 wrote:


You mean its not all Mad Max in Oz?


Some of us still prefer to ride in kangaroos pouches.


^ Common knowledge among us Americans, we all know about your primary form of transportation
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Posted 1/24/17
well when they roam the city centres so freely you may as well take advantage right?
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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17

Bailey86 wrote:


Jamming777 wrote:


You mean its not all Mad Max in Oz?


Some of us still prefer to ride in kangaroos pouches.


So its still the same, I thought you would of gone subcompact Wallaby pouch for lower environ-impact

Argh, I was 'd
runec 
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Posted 1/24/17

kevz_210 wrote:
True, although a counterargument can be made that the coastal metropolitan, upper middle class moved on without middle America's working class. We outsourced jobs that paid a living wage and replaced them with a plethora of low wage, part time, crap jobs. It's part of the reason why many of us feel like there has been no true economic recovery, while unemployment has decreased the quality of jobs coming back do match those that left. Sure, its indisputable that the economy has grown as a whole over the last few decades, but much of that wealth has gone to the top 15-20% of the population while the rest of us are stuck with stagnant wages and declining prospects and social mobility.


But, on the counterpoint to that. Like you got to saying: The plethora of low wage jobs are because said corporations are permitted to get away with such low wages under America's minimum wage laws. The raising of which the right side of the spectrum has vehemently opposed for years. When you combine that with a lack of universal healthcare you are in a truly shitty position if you're at the bottom of the employment latter. Its also particularly infuriating because man of these companies are multinational and have no problem whatsoever paying higher minimum wage in countries and even states with stronger minimum wage laws.

If the government itself can't define a living wage to keep its citizens out of poverty then most corporations sure as hell aren't going to do it for them.

Additionally, the "middle class" usually referred too in a political sense is the rust belt post manufacturing group. Which, lets be realistic here: They are pining for the return of jobs that are never, ever coming back. They are fondly remember a boom period that was unsustainable to begin with. It wasn't going to last and its certainly never going to come back. Its not even that those jobs went overseas. Many of those jobs literally do not exist anymore. The industries themselves have shrunk or the jobs themselves have been taken over by factory automation.

Combine that with state governments that essentially try to futilely revitalize these places and you trap these people in dead towns. They don't want to leave because they don't want to give up the amount of government assistance and programs they have. But by the same measure that town is never going to recover and be economically healthy. That town was created for, around and by a specific industry that simply doesn't exist anymore.

I do disagree on which problem needs to be handled first though. Other countries are operating under the same trade deals and with the same trade partners the US has. Without corresponding problems as severe as the US has in terms of its quality of life, low wages, etc. So there's clearly problems at home that could be addressed first that would help the situation before laying it entirely at the feet of geopolitics and trade deals.

None of these domestic problems are going to be magically fixed with trade negotiation. And certainly not with trade wars. Focusing too much on that side of things is continuing the "trickle down" idea that the GOP has been running with for decades. Throwing more money at the top has never helped those at the bottom. Despite the continued insistence of the Republicans.







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Posted 1/24/17

Jamming777 wrote:


Some of us still prefer to ride in kangaroos pouches.


So its still the same, I thought you would of gone subcompact Wallaby pouch for lower environ-impact

They are single fare taxis.. they dont have the size to lug a family around.

sometimes going green means going BIGGER!

Through the magic of science we are trying to create godlike giant kangaroos that can leap across the country in massive bounds for interstate travel. They cant quite hit the speed of sound yet so they are so far unviable.
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Posted 1/24/17 , edited 1/24/17

runec wrote:


kevz_210 wrote:
True, although a counterargument can be made that the coastal metropolitan, upper middle class moved on without middle America's working class. We outsourced jobs that paid a living wage and replaced them with a plethora of low wage, part time, crap jobs. It's part of the reason why many of us feel like there has been no true economic recovery, while unemployment has decreased the quality of jobs coming back do match those that left. Sure, its indisputable that the economy has grown as a whole over the last few decades, but much of that wealth has gone to the top 15-20% of the population while the rest of us are stuck with stagnant wages and declining prospects and social mobility.


But, on the counterpoint to that. Like you got to saying: The plethora of low wage jobs are because said corporations are permitted to get away with such low wages under America's minimum wage laws. The raising of which the right side of the spectrum has vehemently opposed for years. When you combine that with a lack of universal healthcare you are in a truly shitty position if you're at the bottom of the employment latter. Its also particularly infuriating because man of these companies are multinational and have no problem whatsoever paying higher minimum wage in countries and even states with stronger minimum wage laws.

If the government itself can't define a living wage to keep its citizens out of poverty then most corporations sure as hell aren't going to do it for them.

Additionally, the "middle class" usually referred too in a political sense is the rust belt post manufacturing group. Which, lets be realistic here: They are pining for the return of jobs that are never, ever coming back. They are fondly remember a boom period that was unsustainable to begin with. It wasn't going to last and its certainly never going to come back. Its not even that those jobs went overseas. Many of those jobs literally do not exist anymore. The industries themselves have shrunk or the jobs themselves have been taken over by factory automation.

Combine that with state governments that essentially try to futilely revitalize these places and you trap these people in dead towns. They don't want to leave because they don't want to give up the amount of government assistance and programs they have. But by the same measure that town is never going to recover and be economically healthy. That town was created for, around and by a specific industry that simply doesn't exist anymore.

I do disagree on which problem needs to be handled first though. Other countries are operating under the same trade deals and with the same trade partners the US has. Without corresponding problems as severe as the US has in terms of its quality of life, low wages, etc. So there's clearly problems at home that could be addressed first that would help the situation before laying it entirely at the feet of geopolitics and trade deals.

None of these domestic problems are going to be magically fixed with trade negotiation. And certainly not with trade wars. Focusing too much on that side of things is continuing the "trickle down" idea that the GOP has been running with for decades. Throwing more money at the top has never helped those at the bottom. Despite the continued insistence of the Republicans.




Raising the minimum wage can help to a point, but we cannot kid ourselves and claim we can raise it forever without consequence. Typically, you can raise minimum wage to about 50-60% of an areas average wage, exceeding this value creates a very large labor black market (see Latin America) which pays zero in taxes.

Yes, corporations can get away with "criminally low wages" because no matter how crappy they are, as long as working conditions in many of our trading partners' countries are so miserable people will continue to work for almost free and US corporations can use this fact as a threat in wage and benefit negotiations.

Ah yes healthcare, don't kid yourself the Democrats are no angels here either despite rhetoric. Their party leaders have been and still are taking handouts from big pharm and the insurance industry. Until that lobby money is removed from the equation any real universal healthcare is a pipe dream.

Where are these displaced workers supposed to go? To cities with already overpriced housing and rent markets? The US is already highly urbanized, and zoning laws make it extremely slow to add to the housing stock which in turn makes it extremely difficult financially for many of these low wage workers to move into such areas without moving into an area overrun with crime and poor housing conditions.

I disagree, NAFTA and the normalization of trade with China agreement destroyed the standard of living for millions and destroy many cities' tax base (too many people unemployed or working for peanuts). If you cannot get an adequate worker retraining program in place prior to displacing so many workers it is only going to make things worse. This will happen in one or two ways by either A) making many of these workers de facto unemployable (skills mismatch), or B.) keeping them in low wage temp work while they try get the expensive training needed to change careers, which makes them a tax burden during this transitional period.

You keep throwing all the blame at the Republicans, but the corporate wing of the Democrat party has been complacent in many of the failing policies you mentioned when push comes to shove.
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