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Post Reply Australia is just Collateral damage to trump
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Posted 1/25/17

ninjitsuko wrote:
Instead, we have Trump who's basically deciding to outcast our allies and shun them in favor of doing nothing productive. I do see ourselves losing a lot more allies in the next four years, especially the ones who have been good to us.


I don't think so, I think some agreements will be renegotiated and we'll stay as allies, behind each other 100% for times of crisis, and cooperating on serious issues like stopping terrorism. Trump said we'd drive a hard bargain, but that we'd also try to get along with countries, more countries than before even, better relations with Russia, and stop abandoning Israel.

You're concerned about foreign economy, but look, the USA is in serious debt and growth is stagnant. You can't seriously expect a country to do nothing about that. Something isn't working, they've got to be the ally that stands behind a new president that was elected to try and fix the terrible economic situation in the US. What, they're going to stop being our allies because we had to do something about our terrible economy? They're not stupid, they understand, except maybe for Mexico who only understands that they're going to lose so much drug revenue if a border wall goes up - bad allies, unlike the great countries of Canada, Australia, UK, Israel, Japan, the list goes on. Only Mexico that is well-documented as having a problem with drug lords having too much power, they're the only ones who stand to lose from Trump's policies, and the drug lords really ought to be losing here, with Mexico moving onto another industry.

I mean, I don't know if this is going to calm any fears, but there you go. USA isn't going to become a bad ally, and any good ally would obviously be understanding and supporting of elections that are won on policies that Americans think will help an undeniably bad situation that they're in. At the negotiation tables for deals, other countries will have ample opportunity to make suggestions, make their case for whatever they think is best, too. Trump is even meeting with Mexico, so they'll be able to make their case, whatever it is they want. USA is not being a bad ally, but it is going to take time to make sure all trade is fair and working.
Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

Xxanthar wrote:


matt22122 wrote:

Trump's "policies" will be at best ineffective and worst possibly destructive. Most factory jobs are increasingly being replace by automation. So even if companies decide to jump on the Trump bandwagon and move their production lines to the US, this will mean little for those who are in need of practical solutions. Furthermore, not all foreign aid is charity. Alot of so called aid is used to fund military and intelligence services in other countries. This enables the US utilise additional resources for purposes such as intelligence, increasing the ability of federal agencies to stop potential security threats, before they are carried out by either rogue states or terrorists.



Thanks for your concern, but I think we will manage just fine on our own, like we always have. Australia used to be a very valuable ally. Not so much anymore, after your government neutered the population and became a lackey for globalization and a lap dog for China.

I'm sure if Trump's policies cause a financial crisis in Australia, China will be right there to offer you some money in exchange for a few of your freedoms.


>> this person gets it we can do fine alone go play with China see how you get treated.
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Posted 1/25/17

Xxanthar wrote:


matt22122 wrote:

Trump's "policies" will be at best ineffective and worst possibly destructive. Most factory jobs are increasingly being replace by automation. So even if companies decide to jump on the Trump bandwagon and move their production lines to the US, this will mean little for those who are in need of practical solutions. Furthermore, not all foreign aid is charity. Alot of so called aid is used to fund military and intelligence services in other countries. This enables the US utilise additional resources for purposes such as intelligence, increasing the ability of federal agencies to stop potential security threats, before they are carried out by either rogue states or terrorists.



Thanks for your concern, but I think we will manage just fine on our own, like we always have. Australia used to be a very valuable ally. Not so much anymore, after your government neutered the population and became a lackey for globalization and a lap dog for China.

I'm sure if Trump's policies cause a financial crisis in Australia, China will be right there to offer you some money in exchange for a few of your freedoms.


Neither China nor Australia has any interest in "exchanging freedoms" for money. China's interest in Australia is purely economical.

Our population isn't neutered. We are regularly ranked in the top three in the UN's Human Development Index. We have just as much freedom as the US, if not more. The US's love for unfettered freedom is a hindrance to societal progression. As an Australian I can say that a strong America is not only good for its people, but also the world. But the direction in which it is headed seems bleak. While globalisation has its weaknesses, these can be mitigated through the implementation of targeted policies. Unfortunately, politicians seems more interested in playing politics than actually finding practical solutions to complicated issues. This is an issue that extends far beyond the USA.
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Posted 1/25/17

MysteryMiss wrote:


Xxanthar wrote:


matt22122 wrote:

Trump's "policies" will be at best ineffective and worst possibly destructive. Most factory jobs are increasingly being replace by automation. So even if companies decide to jump on the Trump bandwagon and move their production lines to the US, this will mean little for those who are in need of practical solutions. Furthermore, not all foreign aid is charity. Alot of so called aid is used to fund military and intelligence services in other countries. This enables the US utilise additional resources for purposes such as intelligence, increasing the ability of federal agencies to stop potential security threats, before they are carried out by either rogue states or terrorists.



Thanks for your concern, but I think we will manage just fine on our own, like we always have. Australia used to be a very valuable ally. Not so much anymore, after your government neutered the population and became a lackey for globalization and a lap dog for China.

I'm sure if Trump's policies cause a financial crisis in Australia, China will be right there to offer you some money in exchange for a few of your freedoms.


>> this person gets it we can do fine alone go play with China see how you get treated.


Wow...Really. Australia is not a lap dog of China. We both benefit through trade. It is not possible for a country to be 100% economically independent. China needs our raw resources, and Australia needs manufactured goods. If Australia attempted to restart the manufacturing industry, most items would rise steeply in terms of price. The same can be said of certain industries in the US. Why should the government keep bailing out failing industries, instead of utilising that money to help those that are actually suffering because of the collapse of said industries.
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Posted 1/25/17

MysteryMiss wrote:


Xxanthar wrote:


matt22122 wrote:

Trump's "policies" will be at best ineffective and worst possibly destructive. Most factory jobs are increasingly being replace by automation. So even if companies decide to jump on the Trump bandwagon and move their production lines to the US, this will mean little for those who are in need of practical solutions. Furthermore, not all foreign aid is charity. Alot of so called aid is used to fund military and intelligence services in other countries. This enables the US utilise additional resources for purposes such as intelligence, increasing the ability of federal agencies to stop potential security threats, before they are carried out by either rogue states or terrorists.



Thanks for your concern, but I think we will manage just fine on our own, like we always have. Australia used to be a very valuable ally. Not so much anymore, after your government neutered the population and became a lackey for globalization and a lap dog for China.

I'm sure if Trump's policies cause a financial crisis in Australia, China will be right there to offer you some money in exchange for a few of your freedoms.


>> this person gets it we can do fine alone go play with China see how you get treated.


Do you even take 2 seconds to think about what you're saying before you type it? The US "plays" with China too, it's your second biggest trade partner.
Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

matt22122 wrote:


Neither China nor Australia has any interest in "exchanging freedoms" for money. China's interest in Australia is purely economical.


Lol yeah sure, for now. Just wait until you owe China some favors.



Our population isn't neutered. We are regularly ranked in the top three in the UN's Human Development Index. We have just as much freedom as the US, if not more. The US's love for unfettered freedom is a hindrance to societal progression. As an Australian I can say that a strong America is not only good for its people, but also the world. But the direction in which it is headed seems bleak. While globalisation has its weaknesses, these can be mitigated through the implementation of targeted policies. Unfortunately, politicians seems more interested in playing politics than actually finding practical solutions to complicated issues. This is an issue that extends far beyond the USA.


If freedom is a hindrance, then we'll stay hindered. A strong USA is good for the world, and that makes it difficult for tyrants. That's why there has been a global effort to restrain the growth and production of the USA for the past 20 years. Trump won't let those fools stand in our way anymore.
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Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17
I never said freedom is a bad thing. But too much of a good thing is generally unhealthy. I know that you'll probably misinterpret my meaning, but if I brought examples into the discussion I am worried it may sidetrack the conversation. There's also the possibility that people may dispute my examples (eg. gun laws) rendering my post meaningless while changing the current topic of the thread.

My own opinion on the matter, is that Australia should seek out alliances within our own region (Indonesia, etc...). Not only would we be able to function more independently of the US, but it would also be of benefit to the US.
Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

matt22122 wrote:

I never said freedom is a bad thing. But too much of a good thing is generally unhealthy. I know that you'll probably misinterpret my meaning, but if I brought examples into the discussion I am worried it may sidetrack the conversation. There's also the possibility that people may dispute my examples (eg. gun laws) rendering my post meaningless while changing the current topic of the thread.


How about you worry about the freedom in your country, and we will worry about ours. If we need advice from Australia, we'll ask.
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Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

Xxanthar wrote:


matt22122 wrote:

I never said freedom is a bad thing. But too much of a good thing is generally unhealthy. I know that you'll probably misinterpret my meaning, but if I brought examples into the discussion I am worried it may sidetrack the conversation. There's also the possibility that people may dispute my examples (eg. gun laws) rendering my post meaningless while changing the current topic of the thread.


How about you worry about the freedom in your country, and we will worry about ours. If we need advice from Australia, we'll ask.


I am not stating that America should not take care of its own problems first. But Trump does not have the answers to solve said problems. Real problems often require complex solutions. Unfortunately, like a lot of politicians around the world, Trump seems more interested in slogans, and not actual policies that will help those who are suffering due to the effects of globalisation.
Posted 1/25/17

Kavalion wrote:
I don't think so, I think some agreements will be renegotiated and we'll stay as allies, behind each other 100% for times of crisis, and cooperating on serious issues like stopping terrorism. Trump said we'd drive a hard bargain, but that we'd also try to get along with countries, more countries than before even, better relations with Russia, and stop abandoning Israel.


The issue I see here is that when you pull out of an agreement altogether (alright, I know that Clinton was against the TPP as well - it's more so the timing and overall principle of it) that it immediately has a knee-jerk reaction from those who were part of the same agreement. This is natural; even in situations where it isn't a multi-national agreement (like when you claim you're going to pay 1/3rd of your rent between three people and the other two people do not). I've heard what Trump has said over the last year about what he was striving to do but pulling the plug immediately only causes resentment when nobody knows the overall repercussions of doing so (not even Trump).

Personally, I don't see being "Russia-Friendly" is a good idea for various reasons. I understand that the objection to this would be that people fear a third World War if we don't start playing friendly with them. Though, we've been at "arms" with Russia for various reasons since World War II and the Cold War. But we do run the risk of losing support from allies if we're playing friendly with a known enemy. Intelligence is very likely going to suffer - and it's not because of bases being shut down in countries like Australia (this is somewhat off topic but was mentioned recently).


Kavalion wrote:
You're concerned about foreign economy, but look, the USA is in serious debt and growth is stagnant. You can't seriously expect a country to do nothing about that. Something isn't working, they've got to be the ally that stands behind a new president that was elected to try and fix the terrible economic situation in the US. What, they're going to stop being our allies because we had to do something about our terrible economy?


The interesting thing here is that most economists predicted that if all of the parties included in the TPP were to follow through with it, salaries would rise by about 0.4% per year up until 2025 and a minimal amount of jobs in the import-competing industry would be lost in each country (not just the United States of America). Seeing as America was seen as one of the "legs" of this partnership, pulling out of it will just cause the entire trade deal to fall through (as US is the strongest country that was invested into the TPP until Trump pulled us out of negotiations altogether). So I feel that most people who criticized the TPP "from afar" (citizens like us) probably haven't a clue as to how it was all meant to play out in the end. A majority of those who have voiced negative opinions on it that I've seen are the same ones who are "anti-globalism" (and will not deviate from that perspective).

I will agree that my statement was a bit "alarmist" in a manner of speaking. It's more so that the nationalist narrative that Trump is painting isn't just telling our allies that "we're taking a break from helping you guys out so we can sort ourselves out" - it's "America First, we don't care about the rest." On top of the fact that he's hoping to force our allies to pay more for our "security". While Japan already agreed to pay for our security (and has been paying for our bases on their land), Trump has voiced a desire to renegotiate with them to make it even more beneficial to the United States.

If he goes through with that, it would be a bit like the taxation in the Middle Ages. "Peasant! Have you paid your taxes?! It doesn't matter, you've not paid enough! Give me what you have!" I agree that we're being slapped around with some of our allies and are putting too much money into wars that aren't necessary. I'm confused as to why some people focused so much on "Obama creating ISIS" and now are suggesting that we pull away from territories we're defending against ISIS (which would be the same as Obama pulling out of the territories "too soon" - side thought).

Essentially, I agree with you that we need to restructure things internal to the United States. But pointing our fingers at our allies as being reasons behind our deficit and faults isn't going to yield any favors. We owe a lot of money to different countries for different things. We've taken "loans" from countries like Japan and China. We owe money to Mexico, Sweden, Denmark.. the list is quite endless. We owe over $200,000,000 alone just to oil-exporting countries. This came after a period where we kept trying to save the world without focusing on the United States at all. But just like in our private citizen lives, we can't just wave our hands at our debt and say "Oh, sorry! I know we made agreements with you but we need to renegotiate these things to make things better for me." It isn't like the United States of America has a debt consolidation company that's going to be able to give us a loan large enough to pay off all of our creditors.


Kavalion wrote:
They're not stupid, they understand, except maybe for Mexico who only understands that they're going to lose so much drug revenue if a border wall goes up ...
Only Mexico that is well-documented as having a problem with drug lords having too much power, they're the only ones who stand to lose from Trump's policies, and the drug lords really ought to be losing here, with Mexico moving onto another industry.


Another funny thing about this is that most of the drug trade from Mexico doesn't even pass over the border. The vast majority of drug cartels and the likes operate through miles and miles of underground tunnels that are designed for the drug trade. It's well-documented that we find various tunnel end-points throughout Arizona, Texas, California, and New Mexico that have been used especially for illegally smuggling drugs into the country. A wall won't really impact the bottom line there - not as much as people hope it will. It will, however, prevent an excessive amount of illegal immigrants from coming into exactly those same states (which, personally, I agree is a good thing - but the implementation of it isn't ideal). While I think we should be focused on ensuring that we minimize the amount of illegal immigrants, I also think we should lessen the economic burden of coming into this country.

I've lost a number of good colleagues over the years due to the foolishness of our immigration policies. They were well educated (masters or doctorates degree), paid their taxes, and never once tried to collect welfare or benefits from the government. However, just because they either lost the lottery or because we "met our quota" they were forced to go back to their home country (or to Canada - which is more realistic in terms of getting a visa/residence permit when compared to the US). It's not that these things should be free, just that it should be restructured to allow working individuals to come into the country without as much resistance as we give them.


Kavalion wrote:
I mean, I don't know if this is going to calm any fears, but there you go. USA isn't going to become a bad ally, and any good ally would obviously be understanding and supporting of elections that are won on policies that Americans think will help an undeniably bad situation that they're in.


It doesn't necessarily calm any fears of losing allies, no. Trump assumes that other countries are going to play his game just because we're the United States. No matter how strong and powerful you are - when you owe people money, they expect it back in some way or another. If the renegotiations work to allow for trading between these countries while not penalizing them for exporting goods to us, I'm all about it. It's just a bit idealistic to assume that raising a number of blue collar positions is going to yield exponential growth in the long term (democrats and republicans have both failed at understanding this throughout history). Currently, we're at one of the most educated points in our history as a country. Trump needs to take one lesson from Obama - the tech industry is going to need some focus.

When I say that, I mean that he's going to have to realize that the tech industry runs a risk of profiting more from external countries than blue collar positions. We outsource a lot of technological jobs and that's why you have people wandering around with a Masters degree in Computer Science working at fast food restaurants. Because of the expectations in the tech industry, entry level positions are the most competitive (you need the experience to get experience, basically). Because of this, you find more college graduates simply trying to do whatever they can to make ends meet. So like I said here on CR a few months ago: Trump will have to accept that there's more than just a need for blue collar positions for those with a GED/High School diploma. As long as the white collar industries are being impacted, the struggles will be passed along to the blue collar as well.

As for allies, we need to be tactful - not just pull rugs from underneath of people or initiate surprising (okay, pulling out from any and all negotiations around the TPP wasn't a surprise considering Trump's platform during his campaign - but you know what I mean) executive orders that impacts multiple countries when we feel the desire to do so. I'm sure you can agree that no matter how good the ally, it will leave a bitter taste in their mouth when they aren't sure what to expect from their strongest ally.
Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

matt22122 wrote:


I am not stating that America should not take care of its own problems first. But Trump does not have the answers to solve said problems. Real problems often require complex solutions. Unfortunately, like a lot of politicians around the world, Trump seems interested in slogans, and not actual policies that will help those who are suffering due to the effects of globalisation.


How do you know? He hasn't been president for a week yet. How do you know his policies will fail? Is it because a bunch of socialist pigs in the media say it won't work? When old ways fail, Americans try new things. That's how we managed to come from nothing to being a world leader in only 200 short years.
Posted 1/25/17
I don't expect the American president to care about Australia, That's what the aus prime minister is for.
Especially when his speech was about "America first".
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Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

Xxanthar wrote:


matt22122 wrote:


I am not stating that America should not take care of its own problems first. But Trump does not have the answers to solve said problems. Real problems often require complex solutions. Unfortunately, like a lot of politicians around the world, Trump seems interested in slogans, and not actual policies that will help those who are suffering due to the effects of globalisation.


How do you know? He hasn't been president for a week yet. How do you know his policies will fail? Is it because a bunch of socialist pigs in the media say it won't work? When old ways fail, Americans try new things. That's how we managed to come from nothing to being a world leader in only 200 short years.




World leader in what? In most categories America regularly places surprisingly low on global ranking indexes.

"Socialist pigs"...Really. Sure I agree that there are a lot of issues that may require industry reform, but the media plays a vital role in the democratic process.

Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

matt22122 wrote:


World leader in what? In most categories America regularly places surprisingly low on global ranking indexes.

"Socialist pigs"...Really. Sure I agree that there are a lot of issues that may require industry reform, but the media plays a vital role in the democratic process.



We were the world leader of propping up failed socialist governments. You guys go it alone for at least the next 4 years. Think of it as being kicked out of the nest.
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Posted 1/25/17 , edited 1/25/17

Xxanthar wrote:


matt22122 wrote:


World leader in what? In most categories America regularly places surprisingly low on global ranking indexes.

"Socialist pigs"...Really. Sure I agree that there are a lot of issues that may require industry reform, but the media plays a vital role in the democratic process.



We were the world leader of propping up failed socialist governments. You guys go it alone for at least the next 4 years. Think of it as being kicked out of the nest.


How is Australia a failed state by any means. Our economy was one of the few that withstood the Global Financial Crisis.

Please stop slinging the word 'socialist' around, without any understanding of the context. Government services help the entire community, not just the beneficiaries. If someone doesn't have health insurance they may delay treatment until the problem becomes a larger issue, meaning that it will cost more to treat the individual, then what it would have if they had sought out treatment earlier. We give a small sum to those who are either unable to work, or looking for work, as it reduces instances of crime.

From my perspective, America seems more interested in propping up big, influential organisations, rather than taking care of its people. The Republicans seem to care more about unborn fetuses than actual living humans. While the Democrats seem more interested in their own political survival. At this point politics has become a sport with people lining behind their favourite team. While this issue extends beyond the USA, the country is a prime example of how politics should not be conducted.

I commented in a previous post that I am of the opinion that Australia should seek out alliances within our own region (eg. ASEAN), rather than just relying on the USA.
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