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Post Reply Someone infiltrated the GOP's Obamacare retreat and leaked the audio
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Posted 1/29/17

neotag wrote:

Rujikin, namealreadytaken Except that's not what there saying here . There saying they never had a replacement, never thought they would repeal it, used it as a boogyman, and know it's repeal will do nothing but harm.


Yeah everyone knows they don't have a replacement. We want Obamacare scrapped not replaced.

They also didn't think Trump would win. Trump threw a wrench into pretty much every plan both party had.

Keeping it in place is harming me. Repealing it would do me no harm.
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Posted 1/30/17

PhantomGundam wrote:
So what exactly is hypocritical about this?


Did you forget everything that happened prior to November? >.>
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Posted 1/30/17

runec wrote:


PhantomGundam wrote:
So what exactly is hypocritical about this?


Did you forget everything that happened prior to November? >.>


you know, as someone who despises both parties, i find it hilarious how some will try and find ways to smear the other, even bringing points that were obvious from the beginning
example:
"omg guys GOP is trying to get rid of obamacare"
"omg guys GOP is severely restricting EPA so it can't effectively enforce its policies"
"omg guys Trump is proceding with his plan to make a Wall"
it's almost like they're doing what they said they would in their campaign.

"but but this is bad..!"
well, i never said i agreed with their policies now, did i?

"this proves the new Congress is not very competent"
and water is wet.
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47 / M / Between yesterday...
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Posted 1/30/17 , edited 1/30/17
Okay for those saying the repeal of the ACA is a good thing. A few facts.

One it is actually keeping cost down yes there was an adjustment in some states those states have weak insurance rules and where allowed to jack them hard in states where they have strong insurance rules this didn't happen. This is why strong regulation on business is important. So you the little person don't get screwed. No really you thing a business gives to shits what happens to you once they get their money.

It wiped out crappy insurance plan many of the cheap plans folks used to get were not much better than the paper they were written on. They didn't cover much and if you got into trouble you were left holding the bag. We now have a national standard for low end plans that give decent care.

Death panels insurance companies had these they would drop your insurance if you got to costly get cancer and they would go through all you claims and medical history back to when you were a kid and find a reason to drop you. Lots of examples of this happening this is one of the most popular provisions of the ACA everyone likes the fact insurance companies have to actually do what you pay them to do.

That is just three things this does there are more that is does to help people get insurance and actually keep it. Personally I felt it was a half measure after all this is what The Heritage Foundation came up with to counter Hillarycare since none of you remember that. It works does it work perfectly no does it need to be fixed yes. Fix the problems with it and move forward or give me a really alternative to it.

Real alternatives do not include selling insurance across state lines since the Republicans will fuck that up as well and make it so my states Insurance Commissioner can't actually regulate that insurance. Big wet sloppy kiss to insurance companies don't kid yourself they will do it. Congress runs fine when Republicans aren't running it we have lots of history showing this folks just ignore it.

Now you should be really asking yourself what happens when it gets repealed if you aren't you are being short sighted and if you think things will go back to they way they were they won't, systems have changed already and the reason we have Obamacare is because of how the way things where. But Republicans could totally fuck it up and leave it a complete mess for the Democrats to clean up again not like there isn't history there to support that claim and recent history at that.
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Posted 1/30/17

namealreadytaken wrote:
you know, as someone who despises both parties, i find it hilarious how some will try and find ways to smear the other, even bringing points that were obvious from the beginning


Clearly they were not obvious enough. So I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. My criticism here is not that there is anything scandalous about the contents of this leak. But rather that leaking internal political communications was championed by one side for months when it was in their favour ( with only a few wiser Republicans pointing out that if it can happen to the Dems it can happen to them. So maybe they should cool it ). Paired with a constant attack of a politician holding "public" and "private" positions.

Whereas now that the sword has swung the other way its unacceptable and the other side is demanding their privacy in the face of a leak.

So while yes, its not exactly news here that the GOP and/or congress are hypocritical shit heads, its also a fact that does not seem to filter down to all of their supporters. Or is conveniently ignored when it benefits their own Team(tm).

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Posted 1/30/17 , edited 1/30/17

runec wrote:


PhantomGundam wrote:
So what exactly is hypocritical about this?


Did you forget everything that happened prior to November? >.>


Did you read the rest of my post? The GOP has been saying for years that they wanted to repeal Obamacare and there's nothing in this story that contradicts that. They're not saying they suddenly love it and plan to keep it intact. They're only discussing what they could do to make it happen and haven't come to a consensus yet. There might've been a few idiots in Congress who bragged about having the power to repeal it on day 1 of the Trump Administration but anyone with a brain should've known that something like this is impossible to do right away. If a repeal and replacement ever does happen, it would be because there would be enough democrat support by that time and in order to make that happen the replacement would have to address some of the holes in the ACA. Otherwise it'll just be the same old D vs. R fight we've seen for years that goes nowhere. If there's anything hypocritical here, it's the people who criticize the GOP for wanting to repeal Obamacare and then criticize them for knowing that they can't do it immediately without careful planning. That makes no sense.

Edit: Oh I see. You're criticizing them because you believe these are two different stances in public and private. Like it said, they're not. What makes you think this is comparable to telling the public that you'll punish Wall Street and then telling these same thugs in private that you'll help them get out of trouble?
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Posted 1/30/17 , edited 1/30/17
Looks like the typical politics I've always seen my whole lifetime.
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Posted 1/30/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
I didn't see anything particularly scandalous...

What are you driving at? That Republican Party chairs would cheat for their preferred candidate? How dare they!


I didn't say there was anything particularly scandalous about the contents. Its an interesting glimpse into the mess they've gotten themselves into and how they're working to get out of it. As well as the public/private contrast between the private "This is a complicated and nuanced problem we don't have a clear solution for." vs the public "Obamacare is the greatest horror ever visited on the America people".

What I did say is exactly the point you are now proving. The hypocritical attitude of "It's okay when we do it".



Well I guess we'll find out if it is just another broken campaign promise or it will actually happen.
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Posted 1/30/17

PhantomGundam wrote:
Did you read the rest of my post?


Did you read any of mine including the op? I am criticizing that the GOP has spend years using the ACA as political theatre. Insisting repeatedly and unceasingly that it is virtually destroying the country. That it must be stopped as quick as possible before it kills you all and drowns your dog. Whereas, privately, underneath that fear mongering rhetoric they recognize that its a complex and nuanced problem. One they cannot just repeal immediately and risk having people lose the benefits of ACA then blaming them. That despite chasing this golden snitch for years they never had a clear idea or plan to replace it. Which is unsurprisingly as by and large ACA was their plan.

Obviously, they aren't saying any of that publicly. The public face is that ACA is going to kill you all.

Now, that isn't news, anyone with half a brain realized that what was going on beneath the GOP's political theatre. But, to quote George Carlin: Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. The GOP was selling this because people some people were buying it.

Now, flash forward to the election cycle. Hillary was criticized mercilessly by Trump and the GOP for speaking about having public and private position. Hence, hypocrisy.

The GOP is now insisting the privacy of their internal communications from the pubic is necessary. After spending half an election cycle championing leaks out of the Dem camp. Hence, hypocrisy.

Is any of this really a shock? No, but that's not the point and that is a poor argument. Politicians do this because it works. There are enough people out there that really believe this shit for it to be politically advantageous. So just dismissing it because you expect it is a bad idea. Because it works on enough people to generate political power.

I know its really tempting ( really, really tempting ) to be politically apathetic in the face of the amount of shit in US politics. But there is a significant portion of said politicians that effectively count on you being politically apathetic to get away with the real bullshit they're up too.
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Posted 1/30/17

MysticGon wrote:
Well I guess we'll find out if it is just another broken campaign promise or it will actually happen.


Well, their problem is effectively that they are a dog which just surprised himself by actually catching a car. They've been chasing it for so long they never actually considered they might actually catch it. This puts them in a really tricky position. A good chunk of the ACA was based on RomneyCare(tm). So its not that the entirety of ACA is unpalatable to them and they didn't prepare any kind of alternative despite how much time they've had to do so.

They need time to sit down and think, but Trump isn't letting them. As one of them noted if they rush this through they will own it lock, stock and barrel as TrumpCare. They can't afford to make any mistakes here.

Further conflating the problem is Trump is both for and against the ACA. So its hard to even pin down what he wants aside from just hitting the bullet points on his checklist. Much of what he said he wants is ACA while other stuff contradicts other things he wants and yet other stuff he's said is straight socialism that the GOP is so allergic too.

He's promised that his plan will cover everyone ( but not be single payer or universal health care ) but be cheaper than the ACA and one of the ways of doing that is removing competition between insurance companies because a lack of competition will improve the market somehow. He's said pre-existing conditions will be covered but vaccines will be limited because autism.

However, if you go back far enough he has flat out said that the US must have universal healthcare like other 1st world countries.

So who the hell knows. One of the key features/bugs of Trump 1.0 is that he tends to agree with the position of the last person he talked to about an issue. Especially if he believes that position is what people want to hear. That's why its worrisome that Wormtongue / Bannon is so close to him and is amassing rather unprecedented power for his position.




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Posted 1/30/17

runec wrote:

Did you read any of mine including the op? I am criticizing that the GOP has spend years using the ACA as political theatre. Insisting repeatedly and unceasingly that it is virtually destroying the country. That it must be stopped as quick as possible before it kills you all and drowns your dog. Whereas, privately, underneath that fear mongering rhetoric they recognize that its a complex and nuanced problem. One they cannot just repeal immediately and risk having people lose the benefits of ACA then blaming them. That despite chasing this golden snitch for years they never had a clear idea or plan to replace it. Which is unsurprisingly as by and large ACA was their plan.

Obviously, they aren't saying any of that publicly. The public face is that ACA is going to kill you all.

Now, that isn't news, anyone with half a brain realized that what was going on beneath the GOP's political theatre. But, to quote George Carlin: Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. The GOP was selling this because people some people were buying it.

Now, flash forward to the election cycle. Hillary was criticized mercilessly by Trump and the GOP for speaking about having public and private position. Hence, hypocrisy.

The GOP is now insisting the privacy of their internal communications from the pubic is necessary. After spending half an election cycle championing leaks out of the Dem camp. Hence, hypocrisy.

Is any of this really a shock? No, but that's not the point and that is a poor argument. Politicians do this because it works. There are enough people out there that really believe this shit for it to be politically advantageous. So just dismissing it because you expect it is a bad idea. Because it works on enough people to generate political power.

I know its really tempting ( really, really tempting ) to be politically apathetic in the face of the amount of shit in US politics. But there is a significant portion of said politicians that effectively count on you being politically apathetic to get away with the real bullshit they're up too.


And I'm asking you where the contradiction is. Has the GOP ever been parading down the street telling everyone that removing Obamacare would be as easy as tying your shoes and wouldn't be anything complicated? Telling people in public that they want to get rid of Obamacare and discussing in meetings how to do it without problems aren't 2 different positions that conflict with each other. Again, you're only under the assumption that these 2 positions are like water and oil when that's not the case at all. Even if you twist that logic around to somehow make them contradictions, it's nowhere near as big as what they were criticizing Hillary for.
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Posted 1/30/17

runec wrote:


namealreadytaken wrote:
you know, as someone who despises both parties, i find it hilarious how some will try and find ways to smear the other, even bringing points that were obvious from the beginning


Clearly they were not obvious enough. So I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. My criticism here is not that there is anything scandalous about the contents of this leak. But rather that leaking internal political communications was championed by one side for months when it was in their favour ( with only a few wiser Republicans pointing out that if it can happen to the Dems it can happen to them. So maybe they should cool it ). Paired with a constant attack of a politician holding "public" and "private" positions.

Whereas now that the sword has swung the other way its unacceptable and the other side is demanding their privacy in the face of a leak.

So while yes, its not exactly news here that the GOP and/or congress are hypocritical shit heads, its also a fact that does not seem to filter down to all of their supporters. Or is conveniently ignored when it benefits their own Team(tm).



You mean 10,000 people shouting repeal Obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you? All the people posting repeal Obamacare and why a wall would be good wasn't obvious to you? The years worth of campaigning to repeal obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you?


What are you blind, deaf, and __________.
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Posted 1/30/17

Rujikin wrote:
You mean 10,000 people shouting repeal Obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you? All the people posting repeal Obamacare and why a wall would be good wasn't obvious to you? The years worth of campaigning to repeal obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you?

What are you blind, deaf, and __________.


Your ability to consistently misunderstand things you "read" continues to amaze and impress.
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Posted 1/30/17

runec wrote:


Rujikin wrote:
You mean 10,000 people shouting repeal Obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you? All the people posting repeal Obamacare and why a wall would be good wasn't obvious to you? The years worth of campaigning to repeal obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you?

What are you blind, deaf, and __________.


Your ability to consistently misunderstand things you "read" continues to amaze and impress.


Translation for normal people: "I got called out and so I'm going to sarcastically attack that person so I can fly under the ban radar"

Whelp anyways I give you this mental gymnastics award for besting even cartman in mental gymnastics

Posted 1/30/17

Rujikin wrote:
You mean 10,000 people shouting repeal Obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you? All the people posting repeal Obamacare and why a wall would be good wasn't obvious to you? The years worth of campaigning to repeal obamacare and build the wall wasn't obvious to you?


What are you blind, deaf, and __________.


To be fair, I think he's actually trying to say that the Republicans spent so much time during the election stating that it was more than okay to leak "conflicting" information from the Democratic party - only for them to turn around complaining when someone leaks an "internal" discussion about Obamacare. He posted it mostly in the sense that it's hypocritical of the Republican party to have been advocating leaking private discussions during the election when they're getting a bit upset about someone leaking their "private" views on Obamacare versus their "public" statements about it.

It has nothing to do with people wanting to repeal Obamacare or building the wall - it was about the hypocrisy of the party in this thread. No personal insults here, man. I just think you've placed the cart before the horse on this one.
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