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Post Reply An Argument That Bothers Me Greatly. (The Great Wall Movie)
Ejanss 
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Posted 2/14/17 , edited 2/14/17

DeadlyOats wrote:
You are looking at movies targeted at Western audiences. That's why you see Western actors featured as leads. In India, China, Japan, Mexico, and many other parts of the world, movies are made. They have their famously popular actors that draw big - in their own parts of the world. White actors are not used in those movies. Matt Daimon will not be a big draw in India, or China, so...


it's dimly related to the late 80's days when Hollywood wanted to make "important" movies about apartheid in South Africa...
But they never actually made their movies about Steven Biko or Nelson Mandela--They made them centrally about the concerned white journalist who becomes white-PC concerned enough to HELP Biko or Mandela, and brings it to the first-world's attention. (Like Kevin Kline in "Cry Freedom" or Donald Sutherland in "A Dry White Season".)
Because, hypocritically, no one would care about "foreign troubles" if it had just been about the figures themselves.

Even after South Africa, the trope became known as the "White Journalist" movie, helping out in other headline-troubled areas, like Myanmar or El Salvador.
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Posted 2/14/17
From what I've read from people who have seen the movie, it's not a "White Messiah" movie. Unlike "Dances with Wolves" When Costner becomes more Lakota than the Lakota, or "The Last Samurai" where Cruise becomes more samurai than the samurai. As far as history goes, the father and uncle of Marco Polo reached the capitol of Kublai Khan, Beijing in 1266. There were earlier Europeans who made it to Mongolia but not to China.
Posted 2/14/17
Honestly, it seems to me that The Great Wall is basically China's answer to the United States roping in Chinese and other foreign actors to be stars in our films, more than anything else. After having glanced over the entire roster, the involvement between Western and Chinese is almost 50/50. The film was released in China almost two months ago, though, signifying that Western viewers are more akin to being a secondary consideration. It appears that this film was meant to try and channel Western over-the-top action/fantasy flicks, with the intention of garnering universal attention. Yes, I think the concept is pretty dumb, though that sentiment hardly revolves about the casting. Plenty of things about it are questionable; however, I truly believe that trying to write it of as "white-washing," much less, blaming Hollywood, is a miss.
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Posted 2/14/17



You are looking at movies targeted at Western audiences. That's why you see Western actors featured as leads. In India, China, Japan, Mexico, and many other parts of the world, movies are made. They have their famously popular actors that draw big - in their own parts of the world. White actors are not used in those movies. Matt Daimon will not be a big draw in India, or China, so...

Just like the Ring was originally a Japanese movie, it was totally remade, but with Western actors. If they want a big draw in China, it will have to be remade, with famous Chinese actors in Damen's and Da Foe's roles (as an example). Unless it is that, somehow Matt and William have managed to get Chinese fans..., they'll likely redo the movie with famous Chinese actors in the lead roles.

Not every Hollywood movie gets screened in non Western countries. Only the big action packed CGI movies with big effects go there. Spiderman movies, Avenger movies, Star Wars, etc, etc. Sharon Stone's "Basic Instinct" Very likely didn't get a showing in India, or China, or anywhere in the African continent. It may have been subded or dubed for French and German audiences, but that would be it (I use it as an example)

The point I'm trying to make is that it is perspective. It seems that "All movies" are whitewashed, but that is because that is the audience the movie is being made for, Western audiences.


The movie was released in China on December 15th 2016, has already grossed over $224 million.
Ejanss 
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Posted 2/14/17 , edited 2/14/17

Tyrconnell wrote:

From what I've read from people who have seen the movie, it's not a "White Messiah" movie. Unlike "Dances with Wolves" When Costner becomes more Lakota than the Lakota, or "The Last Samurai" where Cruise becomes more samurai than the samurai. As far as history goes, the father and uncle of Marco Polo reached the capitol of Kublai Khan, Beijing in 1266. There were earlier Europeans who made it to Mongolia but not to China.


As one native comic put it about Costner and "Wolves", "A guy with a mullet...teaches the Lakota to fight?? "

Those are examples of the White Messiah (no relation to the "Girl Messiah" from Star Wars: Rogue One), whereas the White Journalist is just to try and obligate past racist white first-world disinterest in any other country's problems.
Here, Matt Damon "teaches" the Ming Dynasty to fight, but it's more a combination of the two: A White Messiah to strategically Combat Disinterest to preserve box office, whereas Costner and Cruise were just wishfully Mary-Sue self-insertions into a Neato Culture.
Ejanss 
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Posted 2/14/17 , edited 2/14/17

aeb0717 wrote:

Honestly, it seems to me that The Great Wall is basically China's answer to the United States roping in Chinese and other foreign actors to be stars in our films, more than anything else. After having glanced over the entire roster, the involvement between Western and Chinese is almost 50/50. The film was released in China almost two months ago, though, signifying that Western viewers are more akin to being a secondary consideration. It appears that this film was meant to try and channel Western over-the-top action/fantasy flicks, with the intention of garnering universal attention. Yes, I think the concept is pretty dumb, though that sentiment hardly revolves about the casting. Plenty of things about it are questionable; however, I truly believe that trying to write it of as "white-washing," much less, blaming Hollywood, is a miss.


No, it's that China wants more American Transformers--and has enough money to play at "Hey, guys, can we make some neat robots too?"--and America wants China to rescue their big-budget-blockbuster hinders like they did when nobody over here saw "Warcraft".

Problem is, as noted, tastes. China wants good state-responsible history to entertain the masses, and things to go boom (without unnecessary dialogue), the US just wants things to go boom and could care less about history.
Other countries don't care when we make a Civil War epic, because they don't have a clue what it was about, and we don't care when they make movies about the Ming-Qing-Ting-or-What-the-Hell-Ever Dynasty Wars.

(And according to recent headlines, China's good responsible theatrical Opiates of the Masses, namely non-political history, romantic comedies and escapist fantasies, have been declining at the box office, since the public prefers the un-state-meddled Hollywood movies. Just so long as they don't have ghosts or sorcerers in them, like "Suicide Squad".)
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Posted 2/14/17

Tyrconnell wrote:




You are looking at movies targeted at Western audiences. That's why you see Western actors featured as leads. In India, China, Japan, Mexico, and many other parts of the world, movies are made. They have their famously popular actors that draw big - in their own parts of the world. White actors are not used in those movies. Matt Daimon will not be a big draw in India, or China, so...

Just like the Ring was originally a Japanese movie, it was totally remade, but with Western actors. If they want a big draw in China, it will have to be remade, with famous Chinese actors in Damen's and Da Foe's roles (as an example). Unless it is that, somehow Matt and William have managed to get Chinese fans..., they'll likely redo the movie with famous Chinese actors in the lead roles.

Not every Hollywood movie gets screened in non Western countries. Only the big action packed CGI movies with big effects go there. Spiderman movies, Avenger movies, Star Wars, etc, etc. Sharon Stone's "Basic Instinct" Very likely didn't get a showing in India, or China, or anywhere in the African continent. It may have been subded or dubed for French and German audiences, but that would be it (I use it as an example)

The point I'm trying to make is that it is perspective. It seems that "All movies" are whitewashed, but that is because that is the audience the movie is being made for, Western audiences.


The movie was released in China on December 15th 2016, has already grossed over $224 million.


It was a bad example to use, but the concept I described does not change. A movie targeted to Western audiences will feature mainly famous Western stars. A movie targeted to non Western audiences will not feature any Western actors.

This link shows movie posters for Bollywood films. Not a single Western actor in any of them.

https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+bollywood+movie&client=ubuntu&hs=bX6&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7w7P4sZDSAhVGyWMKHeYCDOwQ_AUICSgC&biw=1284&bih=876
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Posted 2/14/17
I do think that a movie saying "this isn't supposed to be historically accurate" gets more leeway than a movie saying "this is totally legit and this really happened" when it comes to casting.
Posted 2/14/17
I do not like Matt Damon so I try to avoid movies with him in it .
Sogno- 
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Posted 2/14/17
ok but is the movie any good
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Posted 2/14/17

Sogno- wrote:

ok but is the movie any good


Same thing I was wondering.



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Posted 2/14/17

karatecowboy wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:

First world problems. Actually, first world, urban ivory tower, wealthy oikophobic white people problems. A total nonissue


There are almost always more important problems. Though most people would not devote their lives to serious matters like genocide all the time. In any case, this is a discussion of ideas, so to speak, of the validity of my claims and worries.


I've seen MacBeth in Japan. Everybody was yellow. Not a problem. Neither is this. It's like when Hamilton and other WASPs were cast with various darkskins in Hamilton. Not a problem. Only a problem for people who hate certain races



That is an argument that I have already covered. First of all, America is far more diverse, and far wealthier to boot. Whites only make 60% of the population. There are barely any whites actors who are willing to participate in most Japanese film productions, where the population is overwhelmingly Japanese. Third, Throne of Blood wasn't even a fucking direct adaptation, and was filmed much earlier.

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Posted 2/14/17 , edited 2/18/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:

First world problems. Actually, first world, urban ivory tower, wealthy oikophobic white people problems. A total nonissue


There are almost always more important problems. Though most people would not devote their lives to serious matters like genocide all the time. In any case, this is a discussion of ideas, so to speak, of the validity of my claims and worries.


I've seen MacBeth in Japan. Everybody was yellow. Not a problem. Neither is this. It's like when Hamilton and other WASPs were cast with various darkskins in Hamilton. Not a problem. Only a problem for people who hate certain races



That is an argument that I have already covered. First of all, America is far more diverse, and far wealthier to boot. Whites only make 60% of the population. There are barely any whites actors who are willing to participate in most Japanese film productions, where the population is overwhelmingly Japanese. Third, Throne of Blood wasn't even a fucking direct adaptation, and was filmed much earlier.



Why does the USA being more diverse matter? Why does any of what you wrote matter? It's like saying "but the Bears play in Chicago". OK.... Why is that meaningful?
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Posted 2/14/17

DeadlyOats
The point I'm trying to make is that it is perspective. It seems that "All movies" are whitewashed, but that is because that is the audience the movie is being made for, Western audiences.

Well....yeah, but America is only 60% white. Although I imagine it might be more skewed if we included Europe.
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Posted 2/14/17

karatecowboy wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:

First world problems. Actually, first world, urban ivory tower, wealthy oikophobic white people problems. A total nonissue


There are almost always more important problems. Though most people would not devote their lives to serious matters like genocide all the time. In any case, this is a discussion of ideas, so to speak, of the validity of my claims and worries.


I've seen MacBeth in Japan. Everybody was yellow. Not a problem. Neither is this. It's like when Hamilton and other WASPs were cast with various darkskins in Hamilton. Not a problem. Only a problem for people who hate certain races



That is an argument that I have already covered. First of all, America is far more diverse, and far wealthier to boot. Whites only make 60% of the population. There are barely any whites actors who are willing to participate in most Japanese film productions, where the population is overwhelmingly Japanese. Third, Throne of Blood wasn't even a fucking direct adaptation, and was filmed much earlier.



Why does the USA being more diverse matter? Why does any of what you wrote matter? It's like saying "but the Bears play in Chicago". OK.... Why is that meaningful?


Well, for one, I like diversity, and I am pretty racist to boot to want to see a bit of my own general Asian brethren on the big screen. Since population is not a problem, then why isn't it feasible? Two, there is a possibility it might affect the careers of aspiring minority actors from such a region.

Though in all fairness, Asians are only 5% of the population, compared to blacks and Latinos being 15-17% with whites at 60%. It is all about fairness I suppose.

Still, I suppose my original purpose was that there was a couple of bad arguments I want to discuss.
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