First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Next  Last
Post Reply Hate Crime Shooting in Kansas City
24142 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M / Oppai Hell
Online
Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

outontheop wrote:


uncletim wrote:


I don't know sounds very racial to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJv6CplYQPU

also this guy is a fucking hero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjQOy4MVvJM
A real American


Ok, the *newscaster* characterizes it as "bragging", but the actual witness did not say that. We know that the guy said "get out of my country", but we do not know if the driving cause of the attack was purely racism, or if he was angry at them for other reasons. The 911 caller says the shooter told her he "did something bad", and admitted that he "had done something really bad" and told her that he had shot and killed "two Iranian people". Witnesses say he used racial slurs at some point, but it's not clear if that was before or after some other confrontation sparked it.

None of those things are admissions that he shot them because they were another race; it just means that he used racial slurs, and nothing more. Guy is a murderer either way, but to immediately assume that he shot them solely because of race is a HUGE assumption.

Hypothetical: if a drunk girl in a bar slaps you for no reason, you responding with "you bitch!" does not make you a misogynist, it's just that you're angry at her actions, and want to voice your anger at her, but not personally knowing her, can only base any insult on what you can deduce about her from her appearance and what actions you've seen. Would "you asshole" be more appropriate? Maybe, but who cares? The point is that the anger isn't based on her being a woman, and using a gendered insult (or racist one) can be incidental, and not the root cause of the anger that prompts you to throw an insult.

Ultimately, what does it matter whether he's a racist or not? Does it make murder any less bad if it's not based on race? Does it make the victim any less dead? I think all murder is a "hate crime"; you generally don't murder someone you like -_-


This is entirely possible. I assume details will emerge. I mean, Sandy Hooke was fraught with errors including which brother was the shooter.

It is reasonable for this to be investigated as a hate crime based on the words exchanged, as it is to not be based on possible other motives.

I do not agree with your last line about murder. I think intent is important in gauging the type of mind of the perpetrator, and that one based on some discriminating factor is more heinous than others based on some human understanding, especially one based on retributive action of some sort.

I mean, there is a far cry between Ted Bundy and the Cheryl Pierson case if I got the name right.
24210 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / F / United States, DE
Offline
Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:

So feeling for another human being and trying to save them, even though they are not directly related to you .... is bad?

In my opinion, it is that 'every man for himself' attitude that just keeps making us more divided and hateful.

Also: It doesn't make you a 'liberal softie' if you have basic human empathy. That is a rare and valuable skill nowadays.

If I were being shot to death, would you jump in front of the gunman to save me?


Quite frankly? No, because you seem like a bit of a jerk. I would be more likely to put my life on the line for someone I didn't know anything about.

If I didn't know it was you and it happened irl, it's still hard to say. I might even end up doing it KNOWING you are an argumentive ass. That is something you sort of have to live through to really know how you'd react. It's a theoretical situation for me, but this guy obviously had similar morals, and stuck with them.
30264 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

uncletim wrote:


OMG what does it take to convince you? Would have to been wear KKK robes and holding a picture of Hitler while shouting "I am shooting these because of their race" then whistling Dixie while he shot them would that convince you?



You appear to be approaching it from a "your personal perception" perspective, I am approaching it from an "in the eye of the law" perspective. You are also entirely missing my point: given that the law has harsher punishment for "hate crimes" than for "normal" murder, how does one prove that the crime was motivated by racism rather than anything else? You can't just assume it, even if there WAS racist speech involved. If he had gone and started an argument because they were wearing a rival sports team's logo, and subsequently shot them after the argument escalated, would the shooting be any less heinous?

Ultimately, why does it even matter? Either someone has a legitimate reason to use force against someone (like... self defense. And that's it), or they do not. If they do not, why does it matter if the guy did it because he took umbrage to their chosen sports team any more than their skin color?

I'm not defending the guy; all appearances are he's guilty as shit, but he still deserves due process, not trial by popular opinion.
22093 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
53 / M / In
Online
Posted 2/24/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:

So feeling for another human being and trying to save them, even though they are not directly related to you .... is bad?

In my opinion, it is that 'every man for himself' attitude that just keeps making us more divided and hateful.

Also: It doesn't make you a 'liberal softie' if you have basic human empathy. That is a rare and valuable skill nowadays.

If I were being shot to death, would you jump in front of the gunman to save me?

Yes I would because unlike you I am not a coward
11816 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M / Winnipeg, MB.
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:

So feeling for another human being and trying to save them, even though they are not directly related to you .... is bad?

In my opinion, it is that 'every man for himself' attitude that just keeps making us more divided and hateful.

Also: It doesn't make you a 'liberal softie' if you have basic human empathy. That is a rare and valuable skill nowadays.

If I were being shot to death, would you jump in front of the gunman to save me?


Yes. No shit someone is going to want a homicide stopped.
20081 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
37 / M / Small Wooded town...
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

octorockandroll wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:

If that cuck that tried to save them had a gun he wouldn't have gotten shot up so bad.


Wow.

Fucking wow.

Insulting a person for trying to prevent murder. I don't even have the words to describe that. I seriously feel like I should give you a medal or something. I've seen some low, low shit in my life and every time I think I've seen or heard the worst from somebody, there's always someone like you ready to pop out of whatever hole you stay in.



It could have been ended a lot better if it was not a safe zone.

See places where people have the right to carry guns, like my favorite bar, seem to have far less crime, and far less people acting stupid trying to kill people. something about their would be victims being on even ground as them keeps them from acting how odd that is hmm!?!
Posted 2/24/17

YayForKittens wrote:


Quite frankly? No, because you seem like a bit of a jerk. I would be more likely to put my life on the line for someone I didn't know anything about.

If I didn't know it was you and it happened irl, it's still hard to say. I might even end up doing it KNOWING you are an argumentive ass. That is something you sort of have to live through to really know how you'd react. It's a theoretical situation for me, but this guy obviously had similar morals, and stuck with them.


At least you are honest unlike a certain other two people just trying to virtue signal. I don't believe you would jump in front of bullets for a random person though.
That guy just thought he could bring fists to a gun fight and he almost died, he didn't save a soul. Now he's laid up with a brace on his neck and possibly permanent injuries.
Not that I'm advocating not fighting back against potential mass shooters, it is just stupid to get yourself seriously injured or killed for nothing.
11816 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M / Winnipeg, MB.
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:

If that cuck that tried to save them had a gun he wouldn't have gotten shot up so bad.


Wow.

Fucking wow.

Insulting a person for trying to prevent murder. I don't even have the words to describe that. I seriously feel like I should give you a medal or something. I've seen some low, low shit in my life and every time I think I've seen or heard the worst from somebody, there's always someone like you ready to pop out of whatever hole you stay in.



It could have been ended a lot better if it was not a safe zone.

See places where people have the right to carry guns, like my favorite bar, seem to have far less crime, and far less people acting stupid trying to kill people. something about their would be victims being on even ground as them keeps them from acting how odd that is hmm!?!


Which makes it okay to insult people for trying to stop crimes from happening because... I dunno, you've gotta be a contrarian somehow I guess.
30264 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

This is entirely possible. I assume details will emerge. I mean, Sandy Hooke was fraught with errors including which brother was the shooter.

It is reasonable for this to be investigated as a hate crime based on the words exchanged, as it is to not be based on possible other motives.

I do not agree with your last line about murder. I think intent is important in gauging the type of mind of the perpetrator, and that one based on some discriminating factor is more heinous than others based on some human understanding, especially one based on retributive action of some sort.

I mean, there is a far cry between Ted Bundy and the Cheryl Pierson case if I got the name right.


Yes, intent matters: as in, did they intend to murder the person, or did they intend to threaten or harm, but not kill? Mitigating circumstances are important, but they generally fall into some form of semi-self defense (IE, an abused wife who kills her husband because she believes that, even though not threatened with death *right then*, she will be in the future). If you kill someone intentionally, without a justified cause, you are a murderer, regardless of if the cause was because you hate them because of their skin color, hate them for their accent, hate them for their wealth, killed them to strip them of valuables, killed them for insurance money... doesn't matter.

Whether it can be considered to have been *justified* is what matters, and the odds of it happening again should play some role in sentencing (in which case, recidivism may be just as likely for the guy that did it for money as the guy that just hates blacks or hates whites). Either way, if it is shown the killing is unjustified, the precise reason pretty irrelevant.
11740 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
17 / M
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

Amyas_Leigh
>trying to save another man with whom you have no relations when you're unarmed
Definition of a darwin award winner
If it was a woman or child I could understand
Not some random other dude in a bar


1) Why do women take priority over males in this scenario?

2) Even if it doesn't make sense to you it doesn't mean you have to be a dick to someone trying to save someone else by calling them a "cuck".
24210 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / F / United States, DE
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:


Quite frankly? No, because you seem like a bit of a jerk. I would be more likely to put my life on the line for someone I didn't know anything about.

If I didn't know it was you and it happened irl, it's still hard to say. I might even end up doing it KNOWING you are an argumentive ass. That is something you sort of have to live through to really know how you'd react. It's a theoretical situation for me, but this guy obviously had similar morals, and stuck with them.


At least you are honest unlike a certain other two people just trying to virtue signal. I don't believe you would jump in front of bullets for a random person though.
That guy just thought he could bring fists to a gun fight and he almost died, he didn't save a soul. Now he's laid up with a brace on his neck and possibly permanent injuries.
Not that I'm advocating not fighting back against potential mass shooters, it is just stupid to get yourself seriously injured or killed for nothing.


You're probably right about that. That would require not just the moral compass, but also a huge amount of guts that I'm not sure I have. Again, hard to judge unless it happens.

I tend to agree with you on that point though. It does seem like a reckless act if the person has no connection to you. Maybe he was less able to make a rational decision due to alcohol, who knows.
22093 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
53 / M / In
Online
Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:

If that cuck that tried to save them had a gun he wouldn't have gotten shot up so bad.


Wow.

Fucking wow.

Insulting a person for trying to prevent murder. I don't even have the words to describe that. I seriously feel like I should give you a medal or something. I've seen some low, low shit in my life and every time I think I've seen or heard the worst from somebody, there's always someone like you ready to pop out of whatever hole you stay in.



It could have been ended a lot better if it was not a safe zone.

See places where people have the right to carry guns, like my favorite bar, seem to have far less crime, and far less people acting stupid trying to kill people. something about their would be victims being on even ground as them keeps them from acting how odd that is hmm!?!


So you also think drinking and guns go together?
Did you two like ride the short bus together?
30264 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17


Well, he does have a valid point in that getting yourself killed while playing hero is stupid, if it's not actually helping anyone. If I understand the witnesses right, the guy CHASED the shooter, unarmed, AS THE SHOOTER WAS FLEEING. He was literally helping no one at that point, and just getting himself shot for his trouble. Probably would have better served the victims to tend to their wounds.

...but I guess I'm just coming at it from the military mindset: the way we teach it, your first priority in treating casualties is to NOT INCUR MORE CASUALTIES, because it just makes the problem that much worse. ...in THAT context, it generally means leaving the casualties to bleed until you can secure the area enough to get to them without getting shot, yourself (IE, take out the enemy machine gun first, THEN go back for the casualties), but of course that's assuming you have a gun of your own with which to shoot back. In this case... first minimize additional injuries, then treat the injured. Certainly don't complicate matters by getting shot, yourself.

None of which makes the guy's intent any less noble, but it *does* make it (in practical terms) counter-productive.
20081 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
37 / M / Small Wooded town...
Offline
Posted 2/24/17

uncletim wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:

If that cuck that tried to save them had a gun he wouldn't have gotten shot up so bad.


Wow.

Fucking wow.

Insulting a person for trying to prevent murder. I don't even have the words to describe that. I seriously feel like I should give you a medal or something. I've seen some low, low shit in my life and every time I think I've seen or heard the worst from somebody, there's always someone like you ready to pop out of whatever hole you stay in.



It could have been ended a lot better if it was not a safe zone.

See places where people have the right to carry guns, like my favorite bar, seem to have far less crime, and far less people acting stupid trying to kill people. something about their would be victims being on even ground as them keeps them from acting how odd that is hmm!?!


So you also think drinking and guns go together?
Did you two like ride the short bus together?


The bar I go to is mostly cops, and yes we carry and drink, yet no crime, no violence, and no stupidity. where I come from, we have respect, and we don't pretend to be stupid just because we had a few drinks.

11816 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M / Winnipeg, MB.
Offline
Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/26/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:


Quite frankly? No, because you seem like a bit of a jerk. I would be more likely to put my life on the line for someone I didn't know anything about.

If I didn't know it was you and it happened irl, it's still hard to say. I might even end up doing it KNOWING you are an argumentive ass. That is something you sort of have to live through to really know how you'd react. It's a theoretical situation for me, but this guy obviously had similar morals, and stuck with them.


At least you are honest unlike a certain other two people just trying to virtue signal. I don't believe you would jump in front of bullets for a random person though.
That guy just thought he could bring fists to a gun fight and he almost died, he didn't save a soul. Now he's laid up with a brace on his neck and possibly permanent injuries.
Not that I'm advocating not fighting back against potential mass shooters, it is just stupid to get yourself seriously injured or killed for nothing.


I'm not expecting any kind of gratitude for my answer to a hypothetical situation, but for you to insult me for being willing to protect you and everyone else from unjust and dangerous attacks if given the oppurtunity is just on a whole other level. Even after your history on this site I still had enough faith in your character not to think you were that much of a prick. You proved me wrong there.
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.