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Post Reply Hate Crime Shooting in Kansas City
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Posted 2/24/17

outontheop wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

This is entirely possible. I assume details will emerge. I mean, Sandy Hooke was fraught with errors including which brother was the shooter.

It is reasonable for this to be investigated as a hate crime based on the words exchanged, as it is to not be based on possible other motives.

I do not agree with your last line about murder. I think intent is important in gauging the type of mind of the perpetrator, and that one based on some discriminating factor is more heinous than others based on some human understanding, especially one based on retributive action of some sort.

I mean, there is a far cry between Ted Bundy and the Cheryl Pierson case if I got the name right.


Yes, intent matters: as in, did they intend to murder the person, or did they intend to threaten or harm, but not kill? Mitigating circumstances are important, but they generally fall into some form of semi-self defense (IE, an abused wife who kills her husband because she believes that, even though not threatened with death *right then*, she will be in the future). If you kill someone intentionally, without a justified cause, you are a murderer, regardless of if the cause was because you hate them because of their skin color, hate them for their accent, hate them for their wealth, killed them to strip them of valuables, killed them for insurance money... doesn't matter.

Whether it can be considered to have been *justified* is what matters, and the odds of it happening again should play some role in sentencing (in which case, recidivism may be just as likely for the guy that did it for money as the guy that just hates blacks or hates whites). Either way, if it is shown the killing is unjustified, the precise reason pretty irrelevant.


Ah, I see, reason then, not intent. Sorry, was still seething with anger from an earlier moment.

In any case, I mostly agree, except our definition for the form of "self defense" might differ. My reasoning is the exercise of other, equally efficacious methods of lawful methods, such as calling the police, are something to consider, versus down to the second life or death situations.

No, I suppose you are right. I do think human folly is a bit of a distinct beast from other causes, but I guess it doesn't really matter.
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/26/17

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

The bar I go to is mostly cops, and yes we carry and drink, yet no crime, no violence, and no stupidity. where I come from, we have respect, and we don't pretend to be stupid just because we had a few drinks.


So every single bar in America has a armed cop in it and of course you can vouch that every drunk will never do anything stupid? right?
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Posted 2/24/17

octorockandroll wrote:
I'm not expecting any kind of gratitude for my answer to a hypothetical situation, .


I've seen enough videos of shootings and killings to know what bystanders tend to do.
If you were armed with a firearm and were a pro self defense type of guy, sure I could see you helping. Not if you were unarmed and shots started going off right next to you. You, like 90% of unarmed people, would either stand dumbfounded or run.
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Posted 2/24/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:


Quite frankly? No, because you seem like a bit of a jerk. I would be more likely to put my life on the line for someone I didn't know anything about.

If I didn't know it was you and it happened irl, it's still hard to say. I might even end up doing it KNOWING you are an argumentive ass. That is something you sort of have to live through to really know how you'd react. It's a theoretical situation for me, but this guy obviously had similar morals, and stuck with them.


At least you are honest unlike a certain other two people just trying to virtue signal. I don't believe you would jump in front of bullets for a random person though.
That guy just thought he could bring fists to a gun fight and he almost died, he didn't save a soul. Now he's laid up with a brace on his neck and possibly permanent injuries.
Not that I'm advocating not fighting back against potential mass shooters, it is just stupid to get yourself seriously injured or killed for nothing.


Wow way to justify being a coward
*slow clap*
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Posted 2/24/17
oh
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Posted 2/24/17

uncletim wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:


Quite frankly? No, because you seem like a bit of a jerk. I would be more likely to put my life on the line for someone I didn't know anything about.

If I didn't know it was you and it happened irl, it's still hard to say. I might even end up doing it KNOWING you are an argumentive ass. That is something you sort of have to live through to really know how you'd react. It's a theoretical situation for me, but this guy obviously had similar morals, and stuck with them.


At least you are honest unlike a certain other two people just trying to virtue signal. I don't believe you would jump in front of bullets for a random person though.
That guy just thought he could bring fists to a gun fight and he almost died, he didn't save a soul. Now he's laid up with a brace on his neck and possibly permanent injuries.
Not that I'm advocating not fighting back against potential mass shooters, it is just stupid to get yourself seriously injured or killed for nothing.


Wow way to justify being a coward
*slow clap*


I might run too. I might stay. Iunno. Have any of us have been in this situation? In any case, I do not think being a coward is a bad thing.
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Posted 2/24/17

octorockandroll wrote:


Amyas_Leigh wrote:


YayForKittens wrote:


Quite frankly? No, because you seem like a bit of a jerk. I would be more likely to put my life on the line for someone I didn't know anything about.

If I didn't know it was you and it happened irl, it's still hard to say. I might even end up doing it KNOWING you are an argumentive ass. That is something you sort of have to live through to really know how you'd react. It's a theoretical situation for me, but this guy obviously had similar morals, and stuck with them.


At least you are honest unlike a certain other two people just trying to virtue signal. I don't believe you would jump in front of bullets for a random person though.
That guy just thought he could bring fists to a gun fight and he almost died, he didn't save a soul. Now he's laid up with a brace on his neck and possibly permanent injuries.
Not that I'm advocating not fighting back against potential mass shooters, it is just stupid to get yourself seriously injured or killed for nothing.


Wow, fuck your dumb ass. I'm not expecting any kind of gratitude for my answer to a hypothetical situation, but for you to insult me for being willing to protect you and everyone else from unjust and dangerous attacks if given the oppurtunity is just on a whole other level of being a disgusting human being. Even after your history of blatantly being a racist and sexist piece of shit on this site I still had enough faith in your character not to think you were that much of a prick. You proved me wrong there, you sure are fucked up.

I don't even care if I get banned for saying that, I would much rather spend a day or two unable to post about Little Witch Academia or Dragonball Super than not call you out for your shit.


I do not know the reason for cynicism, but honestly, unless you have been in this situation, it is all talk. If I was so assure it was moral grandstanding then admittingly, I would not be pleased too. In any case, I think expressing doubt in people our age of idealism, isn't all that illogical. In any case, I think you people should take a break and focus on being a good person in the mean time.
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/26/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I might run too. I might stay. Iunno. Have any of us have been in this situation? In any case, I do not think being a coward is a bad thing.


I've been in a similar situation, the major difference being the lack of a gun, on a few occasions. I didn't run but instead stood my ground and successfully fought off the assailants on said occasions. The thing with cunts like them is they're chickenshit bastards who want to act tough. In my experience they're not so tough when faced with people who fight back, little more than a shitty schoolyard bully in a man's body. Although, again, no guns were involved, so that could probably change the situation up a bit.
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Posted 2/24/17

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It could have been ended a lot better if it was not a safe zone.

See places where people have the right to carry guns, like my favorite bar, seem to have far less crime, and far less people acting stupid trying to kill people. something about their would be victims being on even ground as them keeps them from acting how odd that is hmm!?!


By that logic we should hand out nuclear weapons to every country on the planet. Think of all the war we could prevent!
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/26/17

octorockandroll wrote:

I've been in a similar situation, the major difference being the lack of a gun, on a few occasions. I didn't run but instead stood my ground and successfully fought off the assailants on said occasions. The thing with cunts like them is they're chickenshit bastards who want to act tough. In my experience they're not so tough when faced with people who fight back, little more than a shitty schoolyard bully in a man's body. Although, again, no guns were involved, so that could probably change the situation up a bit.


I'd say it would, greatly. In any case, the other circumstance is saving someone we detest. I admit, I am one for more than just susceptible lustful temptations. Kittens made a great point on saving the unknown to people we know and dislike.
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Posted 2/24/17

DrunkKanti wrote:



By that logic we should hand out nuclear weapons to every country on the planet. Think of all the war we could prevent!


Large scale WW1-2esque war is prevented by the proliferation of nuclear weapons and MAD tho
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

DrunkKanti wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It could have been ended a lot better if it was not a safe zone.

See places where people have the right to carry guns, like my favorite bar, seem to have far less crime, and far less people acting stupid trying to kill people. something about their would be victims being on even ground as them keeps them from acting how odd that is hmm!?!


By that logic we should hand out nuclear weapons to every country on the planet. Think of all the war we could prevent!


Strictly speaking, it probably *would* prevent wars. There is a reason there has never been a war between two nuclear powers. It's a simple risk versus benefits analysis: when there's a good chance you will be destroyed in return, it lowers the eagerness to start a fight. Goes for nations and individuals alike.

....but of course, just like people, there would probably eventually be a nation that thought the could get away with it (IE, use non-state actors to plant a warhead and deny responsibility).
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

octorockandroll wrote:

I've been in a similar situation, the major difference being the lack of a gun, on a few occasions. I didn't run but instead stood my ground and successfully fought off the assailants on said occasions. The thing with cunts like them is they're chickenshit bastards who want to act tough. In my experience they're not so tough when faced with people who fight back, little more than a shitty schoolyard bully in a man's body. Although, again, no guns were involved, so that could probably change the situation up a bit.


Yeah, not even *close* to the same situation. I have been in fights, and stood up to people I knew were armed with only blunt instruments, *AND* I have been in gunfights. I won't even try to tell you that I know how I would react in every hypothetical situation, but I can tell you the an armed assailant and a punk starting a fistfight aren't even vaguely comparable. You really are starting to look like you are, indeed, grandstanding and/ or virtue signalling.

I may find Amyas' apathy toward other victims morally reprehensible, but I have to agree with him that it is stupid to "play hero" when all that is likely to accomplish is add to the body count. Help the victims, but do it in a way that ACTUALLY HELPS THEM. In some certain cases, there might indeed be an opportunity where it is best to confront an armed assailant even if you are yourself barehanded, but this case most certainly was not it.
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/26/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I'd say it would, greatly. In any case, the other circumstance is saving someone we detest. I admit, I am one for more than just susceptible lustful temptations. Kittens made a great point on saving the unknown to people we know and dislike.


I honestly cannot understand how anyone can rationalize that. I know Amyas is, put lightly, awful, as much as you do but there's a world of difference between not liking a person and wanting them dead.
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Posted 2/24/17 , edited 2/24/17

outontheop wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I've been in a similar situation, the major difference being the lack of a gun, on a few occasions. I didn't run but instead stood my ground and successfully fought off the assailants on said occasions. The thing with cunts like them is they're chickenshit bastards who want to act tough. In my experience they're not so tough when faced with people who fight back, little more than a shitty schoolyard bully in a man's body. Although, again, no guns were involved, so that could probably change the situation up a bit.


Yeah, not even *close* to the same situation. I have been in fights, and stood up to people I knew were armed with only blunt instruments, *AND* I have been in gunfights. I won't even try to tell you that I know how I would react in every hypothetical situation, but I can tell you the an armed assailant and a punk starting a fistfight aren't even vaguely comparable. You really are starting to look like you are, indeed, grandstanding and/ or virtue signalling.

I may find Amyas' apathy toward other victims morally reprehensible, but I have to agree with him that it is stupid to "play hero" when all that is likely to accomplish is add to the body count. Help the victims, but do it in a way that ACTUALLY HELPS THEM. In some certain cases, there might indeed be an opportunity where it is best to confront an armed assailant even if you are yourself barehanded, but this case most certainly was not it.


I don't give a flying fuck what it looks like to you. What it is is my morality, simple as that.
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